New Investor questions

I didn’t do much research when I bought my first property in April but it still worked out. A friend of mine bought a property and he and I talked for hours about it and his numbers looked great. All the pre-conceived notions I had… I.E. not finding renters, or getting rid of bad renters were alleviated by his experience, so I jumped right in.

The property I bought was 170k and I had to put down 20%. It is a single family home built in 1996. Had brand new roof installed 4 months ago, new AC in 2010, and new hot water heater in 2009, so I felt good about the property. Also it is in Frisco, TX which has exemplary schools and is a very desired placed to live. I listed the property and had 15+ people look at it in 3 days and had a few a applications right away. I made sure and picked one that had solid credit and all references checked out. I’m making 17.5% cash on cash which I feel is solid.

Ok, so now I really have the bug and want to do this again. Problem is I’m realizing quickly this is a capital/leverage game. My idea is to get a heloc. I have about 100k in equity in my home so getting the heloc is pretty easy and the rate is around 4.9%. I can live with that. My plan is to take out a 50k heloc and use that to get another property. I will take the profits from both properties as well as some of my own money to pay off the heloc within about 2 years and then I plan on using the heloc again to buy another one and then will focus on paying that heloc off again with the profits.

My question is, is this a bad idea? Am I buying properties that are too expensive? Could I do it another way? I really dont feel like dealing with cheap properties and lower class renters. I specifically want to stay in Frisco because it is such a desired placed to live and I feel that gives me insurance if I decide to sell in the future. The rent amounts also attract upper class renters that I feel are less likely to have issues with paying etc. Yes, I realize people with better credit and references can screw me as well.

I know some of you here really do well with 40-60k properties (especially Chris in FL) but I just don’t see that working for me here. I like the idea of being in a hot area that is 10-12 miles from my house and a place I see easily holding it’s value/increasing.

Would love some thoughts and suggestions etc.

Cheap is better for me.

I am a firm believer in “the cheaper the house, the better the return”. In my area, I can make, at the most 1% per month on pretty houses. With cheap houses I can make 2-4% per month. Plus, If someone trashes one of my pretty houses, it kills me. If they trash a cheap house, I fix it and rent it again.

[QUOTE=arlanj;890511]I am a firm believer in “the cheaper the house, the better the return”. In my area, I can make, at the most 1% per month on pretty houses. With cheap houses I can make 2-4% per month. Plus, If someone trashes one of my pretty houses, it kills me. If they trash a cheap house, I fix it and rent it again.[/QUOTE]

If that works for you that is great. I just know I don’t have the patience for it. I guess I’m somewhat of a hybrid investor. The area that I’m looking in covers me in every way possible. In a down market the area is so hot that I would have no problems selling if I had to, the homes keep their value/increase…virtually no chance of them going down, I can get higher class renters with less issues, schools are exemplary, and worse case… these houses are nice enough that I could live in them. With a 17.5% cash on cash, I can’t see how I could do any better in the big over all picture.

Careful

Adam,

I understand your bug BUT, Having been in this business for over 15 years now and going broke twice because of chance taking, I strongly advise you against using collateral on you personal home.
I’ve take huge financial risk in my life to make big money, but I never risked my home. I’ve bought the ugly houses and the pretty houses. Their all the same to me. Pretty houses seem to have better tenants but you can make more on ugly houses. It all depends on what your comfortable with.
If your eager to start buying homes and need the 20% down you might do a rehab and then use the profit to buy you next long term rental. Buy a rehab/flip sell it and use equity to purchase the rental. Then do it over and over again. Find you a local small town bank and start building a relationship with a loan office.
Frisco is a very strong town and you should do well there. Competition is fierce there though so find a good realtor that watches for deals (EVERYDAY) and will call you to make offers.

Good luck

[QUOTE=jlondon;890518]Adam,

I understand your bug BUT, Having been in this business for over 15 years now and going broke twice because of chance taking, I strongly advise you against using collateral on you personal home.
I’ve take huge financial risk in my life to make big money, but I never risked my home. I’ve bought the ugly houses and the pretty houses. Their all the same to me. Pretty houses seem to have better tenants but you can make more on ugly houses. It all depends on what your comfortable with.
If your eager to start buying homes and need the 20% down you might do a rehab and then use the profit to buy you next long term rental. Buy a rehab/flip sell it and use equity to purchase the rental. Then do it over and over again. Find you a local small town bank and start building a relationship with a loan office.
Frisco is a very strong town and you should do well there. Competition is fierce there though so find a good realtor that watches for deals (EVERYDAY) and will call you to make offers.

Good luck[/QUOTE]

Jlondon,
Thanks for the advice but I would never put myself in a position to go broke. I’m taking out a heloc because I don’t want to use my own money. I have more than enough money in the bank to cover the heloc and always will… so baring some major catastrophe, I can’t go broke. Although I’m getting into real estate and that takes some risk, I’m investing in an area that is extremely sought after to help combat potential problems. If you know Frisco, then you know it is as safe as it gets.

No offense but if you have gone broke twice, you are 100x’s the risk taker I am. Nothing at all wrong with that either, sometimes you have to take big risks in life for big rewards.

Thanks for your advice.

Newbie and rental properties…

Adam,

Chris in FL here… 2 for 1 night - LOL…

If the numbers work for you, you are happy with the returns, then I would be hard-pressed to tell you to go to lower priced properties. However, you are in a price range that can be hard to cash flow. Are you factoring in taxes, insurance, vacancy and repairs in your numbers? I usually count 25% of my rent as vacancy and repairs factor. A newer house with some updates can lead to less in ongoing repairs, but keep in mind bigger fancier houses can also require a lot more money in repairs when someone moves out, or a high ticket item needs to be replaced.

I don’t think the HELOC is a bad plan if you are careful and smart. I have done the same before, and even bought houses using credit cards and automobile loans. Some would say it was crazy and/or risky. I say there is good debt and bad debt, and I did good debt. Whatever borrowing I did was always paid for by the rents, including taxes, insurance, vacancy, repairs, and some profit for me. I always keep a nice cushion so I can handle major repairs, etc.

You talked about values, appreciation, etc. Wonderful. You need to decide what your goals are, what you want to accomplish with your investing, and then tailor your plan to fit your goals. Some people want to get properties free and clear fast, others want cash today, some want long term appreciation… All good, but just make sure your plan fits your goals. I am using 7.5 year money (private lender). Everything I buy will be free and clear in 7.5 years. The flip side is, I can’t buy high dollar properties - they won’t cash flow. Your flip side is, it will probably be 30 years before your properties are paid for. If that works for you, so be it. I have a few nice houses with 30 years mortgages, just like yours. In fact, I bought one for exactly $170K. Issue - it rents for $1,025/month, and after all expenses, it costs me money. If I had 36 of those, I would need 6 jobs to feed my alligators. With 36 of the lower end houses, I am financially free and with a decent lifestyle to boot. Your numbers must be a little better on that type of house than in my area - higher rent, lower taxes and insurance, maybe a lower interest rate (mine is around 6%)?

Sounds like you have some things figured out, and are on a decent path. Just make sure you consider everything, get good at managing property fast, and you will be fine. In this business, success is buying right and managing right.

Also, great about rental real estate:
1 - Leverage - make money using OPM
2 - Tax advantages - depreciation, 1031 exchanges, some business expenses you can’t get without a business or rentals, and you can take profits out tax free (borrow, plus usually deduct the interest too)
3 - Amortization - tenants buying houses for you
4 - Positive Cash Flow - if you do it right
5 - Equity When You Buy - again, if you do it right
6 - Appreciation - if and when it happens; don’t count on it to make a deal work, but count your blessings if and when you get it; you buy the meat, but sometimes you get gravy for free!

Best wishes,
Chris in FL

Thanks a lot for that post Chris! Love getting insight from someone who is so experienced. I am factoring in taxes, Insurance, realtor fees to list the house, and repairs. I’m factoring in 1k a year in repairs, $800 in realtor fees per year, and then what I pay for property taxes and insurance. I manage the property myself, I would never trust a management company. I’m not factoring in vacancy because I just don’t see any issues leasing it out and per the lease agreement I can start listing it 30 days before the current tenants move out. Maybe in the distant future I will have to factor that in, but not now. This area that I live in (North Dallas) has been growing rapidly and the rental demand is through the roof. We are even running into limited inventory with regards to houses for sale on the market.

I haven’t got the goal part figured out yet, that is something I need to sit down and figure out. I just see an opportunity that I can exploit and I want to buy in as much as I can safely and with minimum risk. I have no plans to get rich quick, I’m prepared for the long haul. Also, just thinking out loud here but I will probably stop around 5 properties and then take the profits on all of them and focus on paying one off at a time. With this strategy, I will pay them off decently fast. It will be a snow ball effect.

Just an fyi…the property I bought was 170k @ 4.24% and I’m currently leasing it out for $1,720.00 per month. My payment & interest is $699.04, property taxes are $285 per month, and insurance is $773 a year. It’s mind blowing to me how much better the profits are on an investment property compared to the stock market or anything else out there.

Higher-end Rental Properties…

AdamTX,

Those are much better numbers on a higher end rental than what we can get in my area… That sounds pretty good to me. I would set my repairs/vacancy factor much higher than $1K/year, though. In the long term, you can figure out your factor; right now, you are guessing. Here is why $1K/year is way too low… One person moves out one time. You say you can show it in the last 30 days, and someone else moves in right away. Yes, in an ideal world, and sometimes that does happen. Other times, tenant has beat up the place some. It doesn’t look good enough to show it. Maybe they don’t pay the rent, either. Now you have lost rent money, must spend money to evict, and spend a month (vacant) and $5K getting the place ready to rent again. This might not happen often, but if you have enough houses long enough, it will happen. Somebody will fool you. Somebody will hit on hard times. Somebody will fall in with the wrong crowd, and change from who you rented to into someone you don’t even recognize. I had one single lady that was a model tenant for 6 months, then fell in with the wrong crowd. Neighbors told me what I saw - she became a different person overnight. Went from model tenant to having 3 pit bulls on the property and not paying the rent. Plus kept the dogs inside and they made a mess! Do nice houses in nice areas reduce this some - yes. Eliminate it - no way. Even bad neighborhoods have some good people, and even good neighborhoods end up with some bad people. Biggest tip: after you have an applicant picked out, go by the place they live now, unexpected, and see how they live. Whatever their current place looks like, that is what your place looks like in one year. Back to the repairs: what about the year you need a new roof, A/C, all new flooring, or whatever, that costs about $5K… That equals 5 years of $1K/year. In fact, if you figure a new roof and A/C every 15 years, at $5K each, that is $750/year right there ($10K expense every 15 years). Figure if you have carpet, that gets replaced every few years for sure. Someone moves out, and you likely have to repaint a lot or all of inside of the house (how many square feet?). Some areas actually have landlord/tenant laws requiring inside of all rentals to be repainted every so often (I don’t know of any specifics; have heard about it). A lot depends on how well you manage your property, and especially on how well you screen your tenants, but IMHO $1K/year is going to prove to be way too low. I estimate my vacancy and repairs as 25% of my rents, for my small houses and my big ones, and that is slightly conservative, but it keeps me safe. I go several months with very low repairs, and think that number is way too high, then I have a month where I replace an old A/C and a tenant of 5 years moves out and I have to spend a month and $5K redoing and upgrading the house, and the reason for the 25% factor comes flooding back to me. Even when you have a good tenant, keeping a place decent, if they move out after 5 years, you pretty much have to repaint entire inside, replace all carpet, do some updating and minor repairs (and this costs a lot more on big and fancy houses than on little, plain ones).

Also, not related to you, but just sharing a thought here. I have been poor (one of three kids raised by a single mother). Many have not. It is a common misconception that poor means horrible, dirty, rotten people. Many poor people are good people who just don’t have a lot of money. I was taught poor from birth, and I only fixed that with a lot of work on myself and my money habits. I grew up hearing “rich people are greedy”, “$ doesn’t grow on trees”, “you have to work hard to make money”, “money is the root of all evil”. That isn’t easy to overcome. However, I was responsible, clean, honest, etc. I made a great tenant (until I was able to buy my own home). Poor people need decent, clean homes with fair rent, the same as anyone else. I meet a basic need with my working class neighborhood houses. I fix things fast, and I treat my renters well (not like dogs). Most of my renters say I am a great landlord, and they appreciate me very much. Most of them are good people, and I appreciate them very much (they are making me wealthy). Among the poor, is the percentage of ‘bad apples’ higher - absolutely. So I screen a little harder. However, with decent, clean homes and fair prices, I consistently get plenty of applicants, and rent out homes fast to decent people who just want a decent, affordable place to live and a property manager that treats them decent. Now, poor people come with a little less ability to manage their lives than someone with higher income, and I anticipate that and head it off at the pass. A la Ron LeGrand, “what can possibly go wrong, and what can I do now to fix it?” But, good people needing homes are there in the low end market, and you can get wealthy being a good person and doing right by everyone that you deal with. In fact, I suggest that if you aren’t doing right by everyone you deal with, sooner or later you won’t be in business because the word will travel fast and far, and you will struggle in all areas - renters, contractors, lenders, etc. The common perceptions of lower end rental property, renters and landlords and the adversarial relationship that must exist, don’t have to be true (and won’t be, if you are good at what you do)!!!

Best wishes,
Chris in FL

P.S. - Adam, I am in no way saying you need to switch to lower price properties. I think your repairs and vacancy factor needs to be higher, but your numbers look good, your plan sounds solid, and if it meets your purposes, I wouldn’t suggest changing a thing.

Cash on Cash

You said in you first post you were making cash on cash of 17.5%.

You could make infinite returns if you didn’t use any of your own money.

When I said I wanted 2% or more monthly based on the house purchase price, my actual investment before rehab costs.

Any debtor is always in a position to go broke. Some less likely than others.

Dave Ramsey, the zillionaire expouser of debt free living, went broke doing exactly what you are doing. Buying highly leveraged real estate.

I use OPM to buy undervalued properties. I want to be less than 50% leveraged.

Keep at it.

[QUOTE=arlanj;890541]You said in you first post you were making cash on cash of 17.5%.

You could make infinite returns if you didn’t use any of your own money.

When I said I wanted 2% or more monthly based on the house purchase price, my actual investment before rehab costs.

Any debtor is always in a position to go broke. Some less likely than others.

Dave Ramsey, the zillionaire expouser of debt free living, went broke doing exactly what you are doing. Buying highly leveraged real estate.

I use OPM to buy undervalued properties. I want to be less than 50% leveraged.

Keep at it.[/QUOTE]

I used my own money for the first property but plan to use the banks money going forward via heloc. I have enough money to be able to pay the heloc off if anything were to go south, so I am covered there. I don’t care about how other people went broke or how much money they had, or how many risks they took, or even how smart everyone thought they were. I know myself, I have never gotten into financial problems, I have always been a huge saver and pay my debts first. Currently my only debts are my 15 year mortgage and my rental property mortgage.

I don’t need to buy 50k blue collar houses with OPM to be safe or make money. Maybe there is more money to make there but there is certainly more hassles to deal with too. Making a solid return is all I want to do while someone else is paying off my property, and at 17.5%, I’m doing exactly that.

[QUOTE=Chris in FL;890530]AdamTX,

Those are much better numbers on a higher end rental than what we can get in my area… That sounds pretty good to me. I would set my repairs/vacancy factor much higher than $1K/year, though. In the long term, you can figure out your factor; right now, you are guessing. [/QUOTE]

Great advice Chris, you are correct, I am just guessing at it and will adjust as time goes on. You pointed out a few things that I wasn’t thinking about, so that number will surely increase.

[QUOTE=Chris in FL;890530] P.S. - Adam, I am in no way saying you need to switch to lower price properties. I think your repairs and vacancy factor needs to be higher, but your numbers look good, your plan sounds solid, and if it meets your purposes, I wouldn’t suggest changing a thing.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Chris. It’s nice that you can look at my numbers and plan objectively even though you focus mainly on lower end housing. And also understand that we are in 2 completely different markets and what works here may not work there and vice versa. It means a lot to me that someone with so much experience thinks I have a decent game plan.