Only an attempt to point out the accuracy of the details. It is not my place or purpose to chastise you about this.
I do agree with Gatten in that the title of your post: “Bronchick Forms Warning” is a chastisement, or an en your dictment by you of his forms, which I find unfair, since he in fact tells you to have these reviewed by your own Atty first. You apparently do not, so I guess we will agree to disagree on the subject.
Being one who has done a few hundred deals, I personally stay out of the business of preparing deeds. Oh yes, I could save 50 bucks a pop, but then by ,my approach, I save lots of hassle instead of money. I find that the time is way more valuable than the money… but this is just another one of my opinions. Take them or leave them…
Posted by Glen (IN) on October 11, 2002 at 17:56:12:
I just returned from selling a property in KY. From my original deed I copied all the property location information. I used Bronchick’s Quit Claim Deed and his General Warranty Deed. I filled out both deeds and had them both notarized this morning before I left for KY.
My intention was to use the Quit Claim Deed unless the buyer required a General Warranty Deed - in which case I was prepared to use the Warranty Deed. The buyer didn’t know the difference but when we got to the county recorder’s office they refused to record the Quit Claim Deed because it was “missing information”. I then presented the General Warranty Deed and it also was “missing information”. Great.
Bottom line is, we were directed first to the local sherrif’s office - I’m not sure but I honestly think they thought we were trying to be fraudulent - and then finally to a local attorney and had to have the deed completely re-written (by him) in order to get the deed recorded.
Now, I’ve seen the advice in several places to be sure and have an attorney look over your paperwork. Well, I made the mistake of thinking I was in pretty good shape with Bronchick’s material. Wrong answer!
I know Bronchick is beloved on this board, but I am making the STRONG point that if you go out there and buy all the real estate courses like I have, you STILL better have your lawyer check your paperwork unless you want to go through some serious hassles at the closing table.
what exactly was missing… - Posted by David Krulac
Posted by David Krulac on October 14, 2002 at 16:31:41:
here in Pa. different counties require diffeent things on the deed so there is not even a standard for within a state.
One county here requires that a deed be “certified” before being presented to the recorder. this certiying process requires them to check if the muncipality and the parcel # are on the top of the deed and that the seller is really the seller of record. this present some problems when there are vendors/vendee or Quit claim Deeds where the grantor is not the current record owner, buts thats what they want. You need to knwo what’s needed Bronchick’s deed can’t possibly cover some 3,300 some counties in the US.
You posted,
“It was a form from Bronchick’s website”. My site has a generic form that is FREE and contains a clear warning in red, “these forms are SAMPLES only and not intended as a substitute for legal, tax or financial advice.”
My course has state specific forms. Even so, I clearly admonish people in my courses that you should ALWAYS REVIEW A DEED FOR COMPLIANCE WITH COUNTY RECORDER REQUIREMENTS. Even within a state, counties have their own rules for deeds.
So, you were cheap, foolish and decided to do it on your own, and now want to blame me. Take some responsibility for your own actions.
don’t take this the wrong way but you got what you deserved. opening up a course and blindly using the forms is setting yourself up to get smashed. bronchik himself wouldn’t recommend using his forms directly without first going to a lawyer to have the forms conform to your local laws.
it amazes me that people rush to run out and buy an asset worth tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars but won’t dole out a couple hundred bucks to cover there butt.
BMP
Maybe it’s just me, but common sense would tell me that there are 50 different, unique states in this great U.S.A. Each state has their own laws regarding just about everything. Any given form whether it be a deed, a land trust, a will, a contract, a mortgage, articles of incorporation, etc. is going to have specific requirements for it that may differ from state to state. There is no one-size-fits-all for many of these forms. You have to make sure that every form follows your state’s guidelines otherwise you may be screwing things up very badly.
I used to work for a title insurance comapny examining real estate titles for a living. Some of the worst screw ups I ever saw were when a property owner decided to “do it themself” and prepare there own deed, trust, or will. Probably 50% of the time the document had to be corrected because the owner didn’t realize that Florida law required such-and-such and the form they used was from Office Depot and was printed in Wisconsin.
Posted by Bill Gatten on October 12, 2002 at 16:55:45:
Glen,
Why couldn’t you have just entitled your post “Forms Warning” and have said something like: “Be sure to verify the structure and acceptability of any blank from before you use it?”
By including Bill’s name and the bolded word “WARNING,” don’t you honestly think that might carry extremely negative and potentially harmful connotations, possibly costing him sales and reputation? And all for no good reason what so ever…other than for the fact that you didn’t read the book carefully enough to be able to follow the directions in it?
You’re probably a very nice person, but I just don?t think that’s fair or responsible posting on your part. In my courses I also offer blank forms and admonish my readers to check them out and not use them until their structure is verified as acceptable by local records authorities. Many individuals and institutions can do this for you by merely faxing you a copy of the latest form for comparison: local attorneys, escrow companies or title companies, forms companies, etc…
In Bill’s courses, as well as in mine…we are only trying to be of service to the readers by providing what is “probably” acceptable in most cases (to the best of our knowledge). We are not attempting to keep up with every state’s and county’s capricious wills and whims (these $25,000 per year clerks are power-hungry and love to refuse to do something for you?what you couldn?t record today will probably be just fine when that same clerk is busy next week).
If Bill (or I) were to be 100% up to date on every county’s form requirements today; that would not hold true tomorrow (…but I?d bet you that his Colorado forms are right on the money).
I have all of Bill’s courses and forms and find them to be excellent, and to contain as clear and accurate a collection of immediately useable forms as you will EVER find in any broad forms manual.
Re: Bronchick Forms Warning… - Posted by Kristine-CA
Posted by Kristine-CA on October 12, 2002 at 10:37:54:
I made the same mistake. I used a quit claim that I downloaded from legalwiz.com and it when I went to get it recorded, the notary text was not up to date and they refused to record it. It was changed a few years ago here in CA and it was just minor stuff having to do with the wording of the notary paragraph. Nonetheless, I have to get a new deed signed. And it was hard enough to get this guy the first time around. I will have to pay him again and the notary again.
It never occured to me that the recorder’s office would reject the deed because of the format. Also, the format of the deed was such that in CA, you are required to record an additional page if the return address is not exactly where it needs to be for the envelope window.
Anyway, my mistake. But I wish I had thought through or knew that counties/states have different requirements and that a standardized quit claim was not a good idea.
Sincerely, Kristine
P.S. I found perfectly good standardized forms for CA on Ventura’s county’s recorder site. Quit claims, reconveyances, warranty deeds, etc. They must have figured out that it is better to have people use their forms than stand there at the desk and be all frustrated because they didn’t use the right form.
Re: Bronchick Forms Warning… - Posted by JOHN KATITUS
Posted by JOHN KATITUS on October 12, 2002 at 02:02:58:
But the question is, why pay an attorney to rewrite a deed when you can easily do it yourself?
My local recorders office also required some specific information, but they didn’t hesitate to tell me what they wanted. Then I added it, printed it, and done.
Saves a lot of money, and next time you need it you know what they want.
Re: Bronchick Forms Warning… - Posted by phil fernandez
Posted by phil fernandez on October 11, 2002 at 19:37:42:
Glen,
Good advice. Even though Bronchick’s stuff is good , you will want to run it by your local real estate attorney because every state is different and has it’s own nuances.
I wish there was a federal law that would tell us to do the paperwork only one way. But that’s not the case. That would be too easy.
Posted by Tim Jensen on October 11, 2002 at 18:07:20:
Glen,
I have used Bronchick’s deed without a problem. In fact, his deed is the same deed you can purchase at most local office supply stores. Don’t believe me, go to the local store or better yet try www.legalforms.com. You will see the deeds are the same.
I am sure you are not trying to say anything bad about Bill, however I would bet that you may have not filled out the form correctly.
Re: what exactly was missing… - Posted by Glen (IN)
Posted by Glen (IN) on October 15, 2002 at 11:17:21:
Other than what I’ve already posted, it’s difficult to say. Bronchick’s deed was not amended or modified, it was completely replaced. The new instrument was different in both structure and content up to including a signature from the grantee acknowledging fair sales price.
You are correct that it would be impossible for Bronchick’s forms to be acceptable in all counties.
For approximately $35 you can have your deed handled by an attorney local to your transaction - and would be well-advised to do so.
Posted by Glen (IN) on October 14, 2002 at 14:26:08:
Hi Bill,
Yes, I hope others will learn from my experience.
Honestly, I thought I was saving $300+ or more by doing the deeds myself. I was very surprised to find that in only 30 minutes and for only $35 the appropriate deed was created for us.
Most everyone in this thread is posting EXACTLY the same message: Have your forms reviewed by an attorney local to your transaction to avoid problems at the closing table.
Posted by Glen (IN) on October 13, 2002 at 14:01:26:
Hi Bill,
Thanks for taking the time to share your opinion - that my post serves no purpose whatsoever - and with which I respectfully choose to disagree.
The content of my message and headline is precisely correct. It was a form from Bronchick’s website that I was using when rebuffed by the county recorder.
If you’re planning on using the forms that come from Bronchick’s site, like I did, or from courses in general, to consummate a real estate transaction - it would be a great idea to run that paperwork through an attorney that is local to the address of your transaction.
Better to be prepared with the proper paperwork than
to be surprised at closing.
One more thing… your comment that you’re sure I’m a nice person - how is that relevant to using legal forms that are locally acceptable?
Re: Bronchick Forms Warning… - Posted by Glen (IN)
Posted by Glen (IN) on October 12, 2002 at 14:36:56:
I might agree with this. The format of the deeds I created were not exactly what the recorder’s office was familiar with. The “missing information” turned out to be, exactly as Jeff mentioned below, related to the exact book and page number in the recorder’s office where this deed would ultimately be recorded. That information would not have been available to us prior to visiting the recorder’s office, although I presume I could have called them in advance to go ahead and type up the deed myself.
One other point to consider: It cost a grand total of $35 to have the attorney write the new deed. I’m sure it’s different in different locations around the country but at that price it’s probably more cost effective to just let them do it.
Posted by Glen (IN) on October 11, 2002 at 18:35:29:
Hi Tim,
You are correct in that I am not trying to say anything bad about anyone.
I’m also very aware the forms are available at office supply stores - actually Office Depot in my neck of the woods. Believe it or not I actually drove by our Office Depot last night thinking I would pick up a “formal” deed to use, but then just decided to go with what I already had.
I will report back when I find out exactly what the “missing information” is that prevented the county recorder from recording the deed. My assistant is currently on his way back from KY with a copy of the “acceptable” deed (written by the local attorney). You can bet your bottom dollar I’ll go over it with a fine tooth comb and see what I missed.
The thing is, I didn’t miss anything from the original deed property description - that information was transferred verbatim. Also, the grantor / grantee information was all correct - and exactly as appeared on the original deed.
The intention of the post is to make it pretty clear: If your buyer or any of his representatives, (up to and including the county recorder!) see something with which they are unfamiliar - look out.
Posted by Bill Gatten on October 14, 2002 at 13:20:04:
Glen,
Why was your personal letter to me written in such a gentler tenor than your board response here?
In my reply to your e-mail I said that I could see your point, but that the acceptability of any form should have been tested or verified first…just as you did: by having it looked-over the by representative at the recorder’s office. When you found it needed revision, you paid $35.00 for the revision (your words). I think that’s a pretty reasonable penalty for having gone off half-cocked. Don’t you?
And…yes…I know that what you bought was the course on “being your own attorney,” and you felt you shouldn’t have to hire one…but neither should you have proceeded without reading the course…especially the clear and repeated warning that what happened might, fact, just HAPPEN (i.e., that certain forms may not always be a perfect fit in a specific geographical area).
And before spending the $35.00 with your attorney, did you call Bill first to ask if he’d fix it for you at a lesser, or no, cost (he?d probably do it so as to be able to add the needed alterations to his materials)?
And as far as you being a nice guy…I apologize for my presumption of that. My error…if you say so.
And like I said…please don’t do that anymore: many will (and already have) read your post as just another flame and a reason not to acquie the materials…not realizing you meant no harm (it happens needlessly and all too often here…believe me).
All of these courses suggest that before implementing such forms/advice, have them reviewed by your Atty… First. You failed to do so.
Your title of your post does indict Bronchick… and it is you who did not follow the course directives. In fact, I think you mentioned so in your post, but the title makes it out as if something is wrong with Bronchicks form/course. It is nothing more than a template, for which you must refine by having your own legal staff review prior to implementation.
I fail to see how/where Bronchick did not put you on notice of this very risk factor, and yet you did not heed his warning; hence the problem.
the deed info is not supposed to be copied word for word. the last paragraph was the current information at the time the original deed was made, it has to be changed to reflect the new deed info.
Posted by Glen (IN) on October 14, 2002 at 14:35:08:
Whether your forms come from Bronchick, Gatten or the fairy godmother it’s a good idea to have them reviewed by a competent attorney local to your transaction, before you arrive at closing.