Damaged Property discovered well after purchase - Posted by BobCO

Real Estate Investing
#1

Posted by Bob (Md) on February 22, 2001 at 17:21:51:

Another trick that I’ve used is to cut a patch the size of the hole, and then glue a couple of paint stir sticks to the back of the patch with the ends sticking out an inch or two. After the glue dries, put glue on the ends that are sticking out, slide the patch up into the hole so that the sticks are supporting it, and let the new glue dry. Then just patch and paint the joint like regular drywall.

There’s also a cute trick that you can do with the same type patch on a vertical wall - you need some string, a weight and an extra paint stick. Poke a hole in the middle of the new patch (with the sticks glued to the back), put the string thru the hole, secure it, and tie a weight to the end of the string. Again, put the patch into the hole with glue on the extended ends of the paint sticks. Hold the patch in place by pulling on the string. Use another paint stick as a fulcrum, braced against the wall below the patch, with the string coming out from the patch, over the end of the stick, and with the weight hanging down below. Gravity will hold the patch till the glue dries. Cut the string off at the wall, patch the joints and paint.

It’s more clear with pictures. Email me if you’re interested and I’ll send you a Word document with a picture in it.

#2

Damaged Property discovered well after purchase - Posted by BobCO

Posted by BobCO on February 22, 2001 at 10:21:01:

Hi All,

What recourse, if any, do I have with damage that was “hidden” on a property I purchased over a year ago.

Here is the scenario:
Bi-level home. Bathroom in the upper level is located directly over the bathroom in the lower level. Bathroom in the lower level was completly gutted and remodeled directly prior to my purchasing the property. There is about a 2 foot open space between the floor of the upper bathroom and the ceiling of the lower bathroom that is accesible from the laundry room in the house, so I can peer in between the 2 levels and check things out.
About a month ago the tenant calls and says he thinks there is a leak of some kind in the upper bathroom. He thinks this because the ceiling in the lower bathroom is starting to sag and the paint is pealing off in one area. I go by and look at this and sure enough the tenant is correct. I peel off the paint in the area where the sag is occuring and there is a drywall patch, where a leak was repaired earlier. After going to the laundry room to peer into the small opening that exists between the level I see water dripping from the tub drain above. (I am not sure if the leak is from the connection of the tub to the drain or in the drain pipes themselves). We will need to rip out the tub above to get to it and fix it. It is obvious that this was an issue prior to me buyuing the house and the patch was designed to hide this. Do I have any recourse in recovering my costs? I am going to have to rip out the existing tub, and associated tile work, to get to the problem.
Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

#3

Re: From A Mech Engineer - Posted by Jim Rayner

Posted by Jim Rayner on February 22, 2001 at 12:08:08:

Bob,

There is no way to replace a tub drain from above even if you pull the tub out except by one method and that only replaces the drain parts that you see from the tub side. The most common problem with tub drains is on the drain/vent assembly. There is a union on the assembly that permits replacement and maintenance if needed. Most of these today are PVC. Typically after 8-10 years of expansion and contraction of the plastic piping the union finally becomes loosened enough to cause an intermittent leak when the drain is flowing. This is why it often takes a year for this type of leak to show.
The patched area is most likely under the centerline of the tub on the drain end. Typically when I make this type of repair I install an access panel at this location for two reasons: one: this is likely to leak again and two: should the trap on the tub drain ever become so blocked that acid will not clear an obstruction, the access is there to dismantle the trap from below. While somewhat astetically not pleasing it sure beats the loss of a ceiling every time you need to access the trap.
How often do i typically have to access the traps in my rentals? On average every 2 years.

#4

Re: Damaged Property discovered… - Posted by Charles Steed

Posted by Charles Steed on February 22, 2001 at 10:32:45:

You say that “It is obvious that this was an issue prior to me buyuing the house and the patch was designed to hide this.” That may be, but how do you know that it wasn’t an earnest attempt to repair a problem. The bottom line is, you’re going to have to prove the seller intentionally misled you. That could be tough.

#5

Just fix it - Posted by Jim Locker

Posted by Jim Locker on February 22, 2001 at 10:30:48:

I fail to see why you would have to rip out a tub to repair a drain leak. Seems like going through the ceiling in the downstairs bathroom is the way to go.

Leaks from bathtubs are very common. Possibly the thing leaked before, was repaired, and the repair held. In which case there was no hidden defect for you to try to go back to someone about. Now the tub is leaking again.

Is the upstairs tub fiberglass, perchance? Fiberglass tubs can flex if not well supported underneath, causing no end of problems.

It seems very unlikely to me that you have recourse against anyone for this, and it also seems to me that - if someone is telling you that you need to rip out a tub to fix a drain, you had better be finding another someone to tell you things.

#6

Re: Damaged Property discovered… - Posted by BobCO

Posted by BobCO on February 22, 2001 at 10:40:31:

Oh, thanks for the reply.

#7

Re: Damaged Property discovered… - Posted by BobCO

Posted by BobCO on February 22, 2001 at 10:39:42:

Well it appears that they repaired the symptom (which means they were at least aware of an issue) without addressing the problem. At least that is how it appears me. To actually fix the problem that is occuring they would of had to do what I am currently about to do, rip out the tub upstairs. This was not done by them.

#8

Re: Just fix it - Posted by BobCO

Posted by BobCO on February 22, 2001 at 10:45:38:

Thanks for the reply.

You wrote I fail to see why you would have to rip out a tub to repair a drain leak. Seems like going through the ceiling in the downstairs bathroom is the way to go.
Maybe that is correct, but we now have to rip out the ceiling of a bathroom that was just remodeled a year before. This may have been the way they did the repair before, if in fact they did try and repair the problem. The tub upstairs is a steel tub.

#9

Re: Damaged Property discovered… - Posted by Nate

Posted by Nate on February 22, 2001 at 10:53:28:

Who knows, maybe they thought the problem no longer existed and the ceiling merely needed to be patched. If it took 1 yr. for the problem to show up again, maybe it is infrequent and they didn’t think it was a big deal. I second those who say it is highly unlikely you have any recourse against the seller.

#10

Re: Damaged Property discovered… - Posted by Charles Steed

Posted by Charles Steed on February 22, 2001 at 10:45:53:

As Jim already mentioned, it’s probably not necessary to pull the tub. Find a plumber who can repair this without taking out the tub. Get as many estimates as you need to accomplish this.

#11

Patch Ceilings all the Time - Posted by Frank Chin

Posted by Frank Chin on February 22, 2001 at 11:54:37:

I own a number of rentals, and leaks come from tub drains, toilets from time to time. Just three weeks ago, my plumber just punched a 7" by 8" hole right under the leak, and replaced the part - which is right under the tub upstairs. This is the usual size hole if the leak is identified correctly.

Cut a piece of cardboard slightly larger than the hole, and shove it behind the hole. Mine is the bottom of a Heinenken carton. See if see can expand the hole to a joist, and screw the cardboard to the joist. Use masking tape to hold the card to the ceiling below along the edge of the hole, and mix some plaster to fill in the hole. Plaster dries in 10 minutes.

Then use joint compound to smooth over to adjoining areas. Sand it smooth. Put another thin coat over it, and sand again. Just paint the ceiling and voila.

Its usually hard to get a contractor to come and do one hole in the ceiling. Use a sheet of sheet rock to practice on, punch a hole (8" by 8") to practice on. After you do it once - its simple.

If the hole is any larger - cut a sqaure piece of sheetrock larger than the hole. Careful here if the ceiling is waterlogged. Then place the square on the ceiling, and trace with pencil. Cut the hole to match the size of the square. Cut two pieces of 1x2, place it into the hole, and screw it into the ceiling from behind. Then screw the square into the 1x2, spackle along the edge, and you’re in business.

I done two of these repairs since the beginning of this year.

#12

Re: Just fix it - Posted by Nate

Posted by Nate on February 22, 2001 at 10:51:57:

Right. But it’s a lot cheaper (and easier) to rip out a ceiling and replace it, than to rip out a steel bathtub and replace it.