Divorcing wife won't sell; house in husband's name - Posted by js-Indianapolis

Oh I forgot the cars and the furniture. - Posted by James Mc (IL)

Posted by James Mc (IL) on June 28, 2003 at 08:16:40:

She still has his furniture which he has made no move to get, probably waiting till he’s good and drunk to come get it unanounced late night when the new boyfriend is over.

He’ll probably be driving that late payment truck, with no license, with a friend and a 12-pack.

But of course it’s her truck to because she’s signed on it too, but I guess it balances out because he is still on her car.

THE GOOD NEWS

In any case if the law gets involved, they know right where to go. The beat cops will remember the address because of the DUI, also because of the stolen tow truck that was towing the same truck that he ran out and took, a case involved here, I think. And then there is the accident with the hit and run, same truck, a week before the last DUI.

Where do they both work???

Sec of State -

GOOD NEWS Not in the same building.

What does he do???

Processes drivers licenses.

Death and Taxes.

James Mc (IL)

Sorry to go soooo far out of real estate reality,
BUT it’s a good story AND IT’S TRUE

Good example of Watch your Ass when it comes to getting between a husband and wife fight.

Does anyone think I should go over and hit her up for cutting her grass two weeks ago or what>

Re: Still no cause for Dower rights - Posted by JT-IN

Posted by JT-IN on June 29, 2003 at 05:52:42:

JT:

I did a bit of reading in my law book on the whole subject of dower rights. After the sneezing subsided from all the dust, I realized there isn’t much on the subject. Granted, my text is a general one and not one specific to RE law.

In any event, it seems that the subject of Dower Rights arose originally out of common law, or that law that was created by judges throught precendent, not law that was passed by the legislatures. I am not sure how much in the way of dower rights has since been codified.

My understanding of this (limited) is that typically precendent is set when a judge is in a position to interpret a vague law by trying to determine what the original drafters of the code would have intended under a given set or circumstances OR when a judge is faced with a question of “equity” or fairness. My bet, though not backed up by case reference, is that Dower rights arose out of the latter, or an attempt to be fair. Maybe they were looking to keep a widow from being thrown out on the street at her husband’s death despite how he might have wanted to dispose of the property in his will.

I am also betting that Dower rights might be a very old concept that was “enacted” by judges to protect widows (females) at her husbands death because women might not have had any standing to say “Husband, why is my name not on that deed?” or enforce her spousal rights to property in a court of law while her husband was alive. Remember, time was, wives were more akin to property than an equal party to a marriage contract (and Husbands were sort of “expected” to run around with the secretary). I come up with this because it seems that even now, Dower Rights are a “life estate.” My knowledge (again limited) of life estates is that they are only good while the beneficiary of this estate is alive. So, if you sold me a property in Ohio that only had your name on the deed without getting your wife’s blessing, upon your death she could lay claim to “use” of that property while she is alive. At her death, presumably, it would then pass to me according to your intention, regardless of what she wanted to happen to the property.

Lastly, before anyone thinks I have been a lawyer in hiding all this time, it seems most states have limited Dower rights to at least some degree in the legislature. Most frequently this has taken the form of providing Dower Rights only in property that the was owned at death. Property that you bought and sold in life is not affected. Again, this reinforces my guess that Dower Rights were meant to insure that the widow(er) is not tossed out of their house when their spouse dies.

By the way, I also agree that the govenment tries to provide me protections that I should be looking out for myself, often with the opposite affect.

Best Regards,

Tim

Re: No Dower Rights in Indiana… - Posted by Tom-FL

Posted by Tom-FL on June 28, 2003 at 15:24:46:

Well J, if it’s that great of a deal, maybe it’s worth the ag. Personally I wouldn’t get involved with it even if there are “no dower rights in Indiana”. I mean, who wants to be the test case? Isn’t it easier to find a deal elsewhere than be in court for eternity? Of course, she may lose in the end, but if you had to pay three times your profit to the lawyer, where did it get you? I’d at very least have it thoroughly researched as far as CASE LAW is concerned. The statutes mean nothing if untested. If your lawyer can go in there and cite ten or twelve similar cases of law that were decided the way you want, and none opposing, that would be one thing. Doesn’t mean she won’t fight it though. If there aren’t any existing cases, do you really want to be the test case?

I’m not trying to rattle your cage, I’m just saying, isn’t there a house there where it’s a cleaner deal? People have sued (and won) McDonald’s because they spilled coffee in their own laps. Now the latest thing is that they are suing McDonald’s and other fast food establishments because they are fat. A guy sued a barber because he didn’t like his haircut.

I’m not even saying you won’t get the place. Ponder this, you do the deal. Sign the papers, close the deal, now you own the house. Now you get your writ of possession and have her tossed out along with her kids and belongings. Then the next day, a process server shows up with an injunction vacating the writ. Guess what? You own it now, and she probably won’t be paying any rent while it winds through the system. Furthermore, you may be held liable for any of her stuff that got damaged during the eviction. The good news is that you’ll probably win in the end, and she’ll have to leave … two years later. Does it still look like a good deal?

James, enough of your life story :wink: - Posted by Nate(DC)

Posted by Nate(DC) on June 28, 2003 at 19:09:59:

Just kidding, I mean, enough of this stuff you get off daytime TV…

NT

The origin of Dower… - Posted by JT-IN

Posted by JT-IN on June 29, 2003 at 07:21:18:

Hi Tim:

“It was also pointed out that the custom of dower has originated from the gentle and affectionate feelings of man, and not from his sense of domination and harshness.The payment of dower is a device prescribed by the law of nature, to enhance the value of woman. It gives a personality to her. Its moral value is far higher than its material value.”

It seems that there is far more written about Dower in Islamic reference than any other source that I was able to find… Makes me wonder…

I’m not sure I agree with your conclusions below:

“So, if you sold me a property in Ohio that only had your name on the deed without getting your wife’s blessing, upon your death she could lay claim to “use” of that property while she is alive. At her death, presumably, it would then pass to me according to your intention, regardless of what she wanted to happen to the property.”

Dower rights may be comparable to a life estate, but in reality they differ drastically. My understanding of Dower would be different that you posted in quotes above, as in the example of me selling you a property where Dower rights existed in OH, w/o spouses conveyance of Dower rights, even though not on title, he/she wouold maintain a 1/3rd interest in the property… In other words, I can only sell 2/3rds of the property and cannot convey the 1/3rd Dower right… period. This Dower right does not give anyone the right to occupy the property as a life estate, any more than owning a 1/3rd interest of any other property would. The Dower right does not extinguish upon this spouses death, as it would continue to be a property right, and is then transferred to the heirs of the deceadent… An unconveyed Dower right will cloud the title of a property forever, theoretically. Dower can be extinguished through foreclosure just as most other parties maintaining an interest in the property… Notice of action, the the party possessing the Dower right must protect it by a legal claim, and ultimately by bidding on the property. The Dower right would be paid from Sheriff Sale proceeds as any other lien… in the priority and proportion of the claim…

Re-read the dusty law book and see if you can’t make this make soem sense with your interpretation…

Hope all is well in Cleveland…

JT-IN

Re: The origin of Dower… - Posted by Tom-FL

Posted by Tom-FL on June 29, 2003 at 16:53:35:

Wow, dusty books and everything. It’s very simple here in FL. Goes like this:
Married party selling house, spouse’s name not on title. (Actual case, spouse disappeared ten years prior, and I believe the house was purchased AFTER she left)

Title agency says, get signature of spouse or no title insurance for you!

No title insurance, no deal.
Simple

Re: The origin of Dower… - Posted by JT-IN

Posted by JT-IN on June 29, 2003 at 18:08:29:

Tom:

Appreciate the dissertation on Dower Rights in FL… I think that we understand that part, but the original question was about Indiana, and Indiana has no Dower Rights…

So it goes like this… Husband buys house after married to wife, but title is vested only to husband. Marital troubles ensue and the husbancd decides to sell house… against wife’s wishes… Husband sells house to Josh… (aka JS), and Josh makes a freakin killing on the deal… Bottom line is the wife has no claim against Josh, his profit or the real estate… The Judge may however decide that that no count, Dowerless husband of hers owes her some of the net equity from the house… in the marital settlement… And that is how the game is played in Indiana… where Basketball was invented, on the side of a barn with a bushel basket…

Just the way that I view things…

JT-IN

Re: The origin of Dower… - Posted by Tom-FL

Posted by Tom-FL on June 29, 2003 at 18:41:27:

I understand exactly what you are saying, and since I have no information about IN, I’m only speaking from the gut. I made a post to JS explaining it.

Simply put, there’s “should” and “does”. The thing that’s been put forward here is the “should” part of the equation. But in law, “should” and “does” don’t always coincide. So I said he should be sure to see boatloads of case law in his favor before going forward. After all, who wants to be a test case. Unless it’s a stupendous deal, I wouldn’t want to get into the middle of it. There are enough so-so deals that this one could be passed up and another one taken without the marital civil war. I’ve read here and other real estate sites, and the general press of tenants hanging on YEARS without paying cuz they know just how to massage the system. It’s pretty scarey stuff.

Example … there is no law anywhere on the planet that says a restaurant bears any liability for their patrons getting fat. Yet, several restaurants are getting sued for just that. Right now, there is no case law supporting the notion that restaurants don’t bear any liability for their patrons getting fat. So it’s off to court we go. Again, you may argue that the restaurants will win in the end, and they most likely will. But who needs the stress?

Why walk into a situation where you can get embroiled in something when there is another deal sitting right next to it on your desk?

I mean really, the only reason I’m saying anything at all about it is that I don’t want to see him posting three months from now about this same deal that turned into a major disaster because she found some slick go-getter attorney who wants to make a name for himself by championing the underdog. That might even make the evening news a few times, LOL.

It’s not even like she’s absentee. She actually lives in the house. Channel 7 loves that stuff.

Now, if the “no dower rights” position is well supported by recent Indiana case law, then just disregard everything I’ve said.

LOL

Consider it deregarded… - Posted by JT-IN

Posted by JT-IN on June 29, 2003 at 19:00:09:

Case law… schmase law… The law of the land in IN is “There are NO Dower Rights”. There ain’t no slickster lawyer gonna make it any different, no matter how slick he/she is… period!!!

As for those lawsuits filed over people being made FAT by Restaurants, those are filed in Fed’l court… There isn’t a Lawyer in IN who would such a piece of crap lawsuit in an IN courtroom, as they know it would be tossed out along with the Lawyer who filed it… Obviously things are different in FL and the rest of the world, but in IN the law is very strainght forward, and the court rulings are made more of moral and common sense, which seems to coincide with the statute, than what these left-wing consumer cases are based on…

Anyway, back on point again… As for walking into situations that MIGHT cause you some heartburn… as opposed to a clean-cut deal… Well, I happen to make a pretty smart living on getting into deals that someone could get their head handed to em in a basket… So I disregard the advice to steer clear of messy deals too, because they pay so much better than clean-cut deals… You simply do your proper due diligence on the messy deals, and then pick and choose which ones to pull the trigger on… Bang-Bang.

Josh should consult with a competent Atty in IN, (as I stated in an earlier post in the thread), understand his risks and then go buy the HOUSE fromt he Husband… and laugh all the way to the BANK.

Just the way that I view things…

JT-IN