Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on April 26, 2002 at 14:39:13:
David H--------------
I don’t have a breakdown. The manager told me the total quote over the phone. I suspect that the quote does not break it down either.
Good InvestingRon Starr****
Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)
Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on April 25, 2002 at 19:32:59:
I got a call from my property manager and talked to the electrician she had hired. I am seeking insight from those who have worked on electrical panels at the service entry.
Problem: half the circuits in the house were not working. Electrician replaced one dead circuit breaker. Cleaned off the two bus bars. Moved one of the other circuit breakers into an empty spot. States that this is a “temporary fix.” Says the bars are “burned.” Suggests replacing the whole panel. Says that it might hold up as is from “one day to a year.” But he says it will eventually go bad again.
I would prefer not to pay out the cost. His bid was about one month’s rent. I am not sure that it is necessary to replace the whole box. I’m thinking maybe I just need to replace the two bus bars. Any comments? Any other ways to deal with the issue? I will be going to see the house.
Thanks for any advice.
Ron Starr************
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by just me
Posted by just me on April 26, 2002 at 13:15:01:
REPLACE REPLACE REPLACE
OK
Go to a building supply and get a new panel board and then get a licenesed electricain to do the work.
Remeber a person cannot see electricity only harness it. If you wnat to be like the dutch boy and put your finger in the hole in the dyke; go ahead.
Just remember when the property burns down and possibly takes lives; you have been warned.
Yes I do this for a living and am a licensed contractor.
Do it right for the sake of your tenants.
wireman
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Dee-Texas
Posted by Dee-Texas on April 26, 2002 at 07:03:12:
Hi,
I would buy the new breaker panel and parts at Home Depot or Lowe’s. Get a lic. electrican to put in a new breaker panel. Make sure you have extra slots if you need them.
You will sleep better at night with the new safe panel box in your property.
Sometimes it’s wiser not to pinch pennies on somethings. We keep one electrican that does all of our work. We know that he is median in his charges BUT does way more quality work than the rest.
We never mickey with plumbling or electricity.
My two cents.
Henderson Construction Company
Dee-Texas
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by JohnBoy
Posted by JohnBoy on April 25, 2002 at 22:18:48:
I can’t imagine saving that much by just replacing the bars VS. buying a new box. See what the guy is charging for the box itself and then compare the cost to what you can buy the box for at a home club. I had an electrician tell me once that I could buy the box from a place like Menard’s or Home Depot for about 1/3 the cost their company would charge me for the same box. Just make sure your guy will use a box if you supply one instead. But I think the biggest cost is in the labor. Whether he replaced the box or just the bars he would still need to pull all the breakers out either way. Once the breakers are pulled how how hard is it to take out a few screws holding the box in place VS. trying to replace a couple of bars?
If I remember correctly when we were looking at adding another box, the electrician told me the box through them would run about $150 and said I could probablt get it at one of the home stores for about $40. So you may want to check that out and see if that would save you a few bucks.
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by JT-IN
Posted by JT-IN on April 25, 2002 at 21:17:28:
Ron:
Whenever you get a recommendation from a licensed tradesman, (assuming this electrician is licensed), I am always reluctant to go against their advice. The only exception to this is, when you can find an equally licensed and qualified tradesman in the same field, to refute this advice; (in writing). Short of that rebuttal, I think that you are somewhat obligated (stuck) to act on such advice.
Here is my rationale… Lets say something terrible happened here, without you acting on this advice, and there was a serious injury or worse to a tenant(s). The first person that would surface here would be the tradesman (electrician) to say: “I told him so”. Your liablitiy and exposure is so great in a case such as that, that you would be hung out to dry… and all over $ 500 bucks…
My advice is to swallow hard, and write the check, unless you get contrary advice from an equally qualified technician to refute tech #1’s opinion. Documentation is important here.
This is one of the best forms of asset protectiopn that you can employ, IMHO.
Just the way that I view things…
JT-IN
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Frank Chin
Posted by Frank Chin on April 25, 2002 at 20:08:23:
Hi Ron:
I recently had the service entry of a 3 family house replaced. This involved three new main panels, three new electrical meters. In NYC, it cost me around $2,300. There was no way around a licensed electrician and getting permits. The permits alone cost $375.00
I replaced it because it was a constant problem going back several years. The location where the entry is located is damp, causing rusting. The panels were cleaned out several times, but the problems became more and more frequent.
Most recently, electricity would go out to an entire apartment after a heavy truck would rumble down the street. Soemtimes the tenant would call and the electricity would mysterioulsy go back on.
I sometimes get these calls around 11:00PM to midnight.
There were additional issues which I reviewed with the electrician.
1- I only got single phase service, due to the single phase meter I got. Thus, I can only have 115 volts, not 208 for the larger AC units.
2- Rusty buses have higher resistance. He had me touch the cables coming into the building, and they were hot. A definite danger.
3- My tenants can only run one large and one small AC at the same time, and the circuits would blow when they turn on a microwave. I cannot run additional circuits without a larger service entry.
4- I owned this house for close to twenty years, and as its only ten minutes away, I making a keeper, for perhaps another 20 years. The job has to be done sooner or later. I’ll lose less sleep having it done sooner.
5- I own another SFH in a nearby town. There the panels would have to be replaced to bring it up to code before I can sell it. I have a 60 amp main, and the code now requires 100 amps.
Hope this helps.
Frank Chin
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Steven Wiley
Posted by Steven Wiley on April 25, 2002 at 20:07:47:
Hey Ron. I am an electric, air conditioning, and plumbing subcontractor in Texas. The problem you are experiencing is very common with older panels.
What happens over time is the connections that hold the breakers on the buss bar become loose and create heat. This heat then loosens the connection even more over time and creates electrolisis between the blades on the breaker and the buss bar. Eventually you end up with a buss bar that is so badly pitted that it is no longer possible to install a new breaker in this “space” because the buss bar will continue to corrode, and heat up (and loosen) the blades on the breaker again.
Your electrician is correct. The only permanent solution is to replace the panel. You didn’t mention the exact amount, but I am assuming a months rent is near $ 1,000.00. I also think this is a fair estimate. It should break down like this:
panel $ 150.00
breakers $ 100.00
Misc material $ 150.00
Labor @ $ 48.00/ hour $ 300.00
Total $ 700.00
Sales tax @ 8.25% 57.75
Total $ 757.75
Option: If you have the room see if he can install a 2 pole breaker as a main and set a small 6 circuit panel right next to the main panel. He will then extend the circuits into the new panel and install new breakers and abandon the bad spaces on the existing buss bar. This might cut the labor and material by as much as 50%
Maybe this will help. Anyway it my $ .02
Steven
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)
Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on April 26, 2002 at 14:28:46:
Just Me, Wireman----------------------
Thanks for your professional input. I certainly don’t want any of my renters injured or my property to be burned.
I am inclined now to buy the materials myself, as you suggest, if that saves some money. I will be back there in OK late next month and in early June.
Good InvestingRon Starr***
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in no CA)
Posted by Ronald * Starr(in no CA) on April 26, 2002 at 14:15:14:
JohnBoy-------
Thanks for the information. I’ll see what the situation is. Whether I could save by providing the box myself. He was already planning to reuse the same breakers, one new and several old.
Good Investing and Good Posting**Ron Starr
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)
Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on April 25, 2002 at 21:54:23:
JT–(IN)-----------------
Thank you for your response. I have often admired your suggestions and information. I do so again.
You make a good point about the liability issue.
Also the idea of getting different opinions. I am now thinking about writing a short note to several electricians in the area. I will point out the problem and the proposed solution, as well as the original electricians bid amount. I think I shall ask for both lower bids and for alternative, less costly, solutions.
Good Investing, Good Lawn Mowing, & Good Posting***********Ron Starr****************
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Frank Chin
Posted by Frank Chin on April 26, 2002 at 07:26:56:
Hi Ron:
Just want to mention that the job I had done required the replacement of the boxes that the electric meters sit on, in addition to three main circuit panels. This is due to the need to convert from single phase to two phase power. That’s three more boxes, plus a whole lot more wiring.
Here it means the job needs an inspection be the utility company to check on the installation of the meters and locking them, in addition to the Building Department inspection to clear the permits.
Originally, I was going to skip doing the meters. But I was told that if I was to pull permits for the job, I’m required to bring whatever I do UP to CODE, and the current code is two phase power.
So the thinking is, if I’m going to spend the money to do the job, might as well solve the immediate problem, and several others, including those in the future. Someday when I sell, I might not be able to do so with the old service entry.
As far as circuits blowing when tenants turn on more than two AC’s, it really bugs some of them. As long as I kept the rents low, no ones complaining. But if I’m going to charge market, then people expect to have three AC’s on all day in a 2BR place with no problems.
After all, there’s a lot of newer places with central air.
As far as picking up cheaper boxes as some suggested, I had discussion with some trades people on this and other jobs. It seems these guys have their own favorite supply houses they go to. And if there have to spend another 30 minutes to run to Home Depot, stand on line, they’ll charge me the extra time, at $75.00/hour in NYC.
In fact, I done some electrical work of my own, and I had to get stuff at electrical supply houses that Home Depot does not carry. In fact the Home Depot guys tell me to get it there themselves. So I can see why these trades people want to make one trip and get everything that fits right, rather than make a whole lot of little trips.
To them, time is money.
Frank Chin
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)
Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on April 25, 2002 at 21:11:19:
Frank Chin–(NY)-------------
Thank you for your response. It sounds as though the price you paid, divided by 3 would be about that mentioned by Steven Wiley of TX.
Fortunately, the bid I got is less than the amounts you and he mention.
Good Investing and Good Posting*************Ron Starr*****************
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA)
Posted by Ronald * Starr(in No CA) on April 25, 2002 at 21:02:31:
Steven Wiley–(TX)----------------
Thank you for a knowledgeable, clear response.
Actually, the property is near Oklahoma City OK. The rent is about $500. The quote for the work is less than you indicate.
I still wonder if it would be possible to just replace the bus bars themselves, leaving the box and weatherhead and suchlike in place. Would you care to comment on this proposal?
Good InvestingRon Starr***
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by JT-IN
Posted by JT-IN on April 25, 2002 at 22:04:32:
Ron:
Just be certain that you are dealing with someone reputable. I am sure that you know that, “the lowest price is not always the lowest price”… in the long run.
And… “you generally get what you pay for”.
And… “the sting of poor quality is far more long lasting, than the price, of a quality job”
And… I am sure that you are well qualified to determine the proper direction. Best of luck on arriving at a good decision here.
JT-IN
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Frank Chin
Posted by Frank Chin on April 26, 2002 at 07:28:32:
Hi Ron:
Just want to mention that the job I had done required the replacement of the boxes that the electric meters sit on, in addition to three main circuit panels. This is due to the need to convert from single phase to two phase power. That’s three more boxes, plus a whole lot more wiring.
Here it means the job needs an inspection be the utility company to check on the installation of the meters and locking them, in addition to the Building Department inspection to clear the permits.
Originally, I was going to skip doing the meters. But I was told that if I was to pull permits for the job, I’m required to bring whatever I do UP to CODE, and the current code is two phase power.
So the thinking is, if I’m going to spend the money to do the job, might as well solve the immediate problem, and several others, including those in the future. Someday when I sell, I might not be able to do so with the old service entry.
As far as circuits blowing when tenants turn on more than two AC’s, it really bugs some of them. As long as I kept the rents low, no ones complaining. But if I’m going to charge market, then people expect to have three AC’s on all day in a 2BR place with no problems.
After all, there’s a lot of newer places with central air.
As far as picking up cheaper boxes as some suggested, I had discussion with some trades people on this and other jobs. It seems these guys have their own favorite supply houses they go to. And if there have to spend another 30 minutes to run to Home Depot, stand on line, they’ll charge me the extra time, at $75.00/hour in NYC.
In fact, I done some electrical work of my own, and I had to get stuff at electrical supply houses that Home Depot does not carry. In fact the Home Depot guys tell me to get it there themselves. So I can see why these trades people want to make one trip and get everything that fits right, rather than make a whole lot of little trips.
To them, time is money.
Frank Chin
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by David H
Posted by David H on April 26, 2002 at 14:27:44:
Something that would be interesting to me would be to know the cost components of the entire service box, and the cost breakdown of the original quote. Perhaps 90% of the material cost is in the bus bars? How much of the quote is in labor vs. material?
Re: Electrical Panel–Replace or ? - Posted by Ronald * Starr(in no CA0
Posted by Ronald * Starr(in no CA0 on April 26, 2002 at 14:23:16:
Frank Chin–(NY)-----------------
Thanks for your imput. Everything you say makes sense to me. I will be back in OK next month and early June, so I can see the situation myself. If it involves buying a box, I’m sure I’ll have the time to pick one up myself, if the savings is worth it.
Good Investing & Good PostingRon Starr*