Posted by Tim Jensen on August 09, 2001 at 21:29:12:
Potash,
I have two questions.
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How long have you been an investors?
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Why do you agree with me?
Thanks,
Tim
Enough to go around… - Posted by Tim Jensen
Posted by Tim Jensen on August 08, 2001 at 08:18:22:
Hi All,
I just want to get everyone’s opinion on the phrase “There are enough deals do go around for everyone”. This was inspired by David Alexander’s comment about abundence(sp?) thrives.
So, what is your opion on that phrase. Here is mine:
Whenever I hear someone say “There are enough deals do go around for everyone”, I get worried. It seems that when someone tells me that and they are in the same business as I am, that means that either they are going to try and take one of my deals or start directly competeing with me ie. using my marketing ideas. I do not mean to be negative, just what I have experienced in the past.
Now, I happen to believe that there are enough deals for everyone. I just don’t vocalize that belief to other investors. It just seems to be an unspoken truth among successful investors. Also, by vocalizing it, it just seems to bring out the competitiveness in people. I do not think myself as a competitive investor. I have found that if I have to compete with an investor on a property, I will end up paying more than I want. For that reason, whenever I am in a competitive situation, like a foreclosure sale, I figure out what I will pay for the property and will not go above that amount.
When you are in this business (or any other) long enough you will see my point about people who say “There are enough deals do go around for everyone”. Now, I am not picking on anyone here for saying it. I see nothing wrong with vocalizing that phrase, just not with other investors in my area. I hope I made myself clear. If not, I am sure people here will point that out to me.
Waiting for your input,
Tim Jensen
Re: Enough to go around… - Posted by JT - IN
Posted by JT - IN on August 10, 2001 at 16:52:02:
Investing in RE is like survival of the fitest. Only investors who are prepared to succeed, will succeed, and for those that fit this niche, there are enough deals to go around. For the vast many of folks who drift in, and drift out of Re investing, after finding it a lot of ups and downs, and a heck of a lot of work, (when you are a newbie), they leave being disillusioned that there were NOT enough deals to go around.
Who is right? Both points of view.
When preparedness, meets opportunity, then you have success. Now, most unsuccessful ppl (or yet to be successful), will classify this as LUCK, and that is why the harder/smarter that you work, the Luckier you get !!!
There are enough deals to go around, for those that have prepared to "get around’, to all those deals that are around.
Just the way that I view things…
JT - IN
Re: Enough to go around… - Posted by Steph in Tex
Posted by Steph in Tex on August 09, 2001 at 09:24:50:
Hey Tim!
Like most, I have to agree…
There are planty of deals for everyone.
Sure it may create an air of competitiveness… Hey, that’s a good thing! I love it! But seriously… The more I give out, the more I get back.
I’ve even started a class for newbies. These guys are working right in my back yard, doing deals, AND bringing me deals. The more I help these guys succeed, the more I do to. There’s no way I could do all the deals in Austin, and hey~ if I lose a few, so what. NEXT!
Live and learn. And yes, there are those who are not upstanding individuals. They will pull the rug out from under you. So what do you do? You don’t play with those guys anymore, and warn those who are still learning.
When I was starting out, I felt much like you do about the subject. I’ve learned so much and continue to every day.
Like those below, call it Karma, call it faith, call it whatever you like. But it all comes out the same. You got to give to get.
I tell everyone, there are enough deals for all of us. If you Believe there are… Guess what? If you Believe there aren’t… Well you know the answer to that one.
Just my .02.
Later!
Steph in tex
Re: Enough to go around… - Posted by Jim FL
Posted by Jim FL on August 08, 2001 at 22:36:17:
Tim,
I am often heard to say this very phrase.
This is because I believe it to be true.
When I hear investors, even me sometimes, say things like, “My market is so tough”, or “The competition here is killing me”, I think about a few things.
For example:
If an investor is doing deals a certain way and these types of deals dry up for them, are their “Enough deals to go around”?
Sure there are, just not the type they were used to doing.
Can anyone in any market make deals, and make money at them?
Sure they can.
The key to succeeding to me in ANY market is to have the creative knowledge to formulate strategies that will handle the most common situations creating motivation with sellers.
What if an investor has been doing nothing but wholesaling properties, buying them at say 60% and selling them for more, and suddenly those deals become harder and harder to find?
Are there still “Enough deals to go around” ?
I think so, just maybe not those kind.
Take a look at the post from Mark NC recently about wholesaling properties.
The market where he is, and in many other places has created more investors/buyers who are willing to pay higher than the low 60%, therefore these people who are willing to pay more are getting the deals.
How does one insure there are plenty of deals to do?
Simple, change what they are doing, and locate sellers who are in need of a different type of service or offer.
I know first hand that one must be ready to change the way they do things in order to maintain a business in buying homes, as I’m sure you do as well.
Is your market the same that is was when you began?
I’m sure it is not, and I’m also sure that you STILL get enough deals to keep you happy.
I’m just now starting fresh here in another market, and my strategies are changing to suit it.
Sure, I’ll still do L/O’s, and Subject to deals as sellers present them.
But, I’ll also begin to do other type of deals, so that I can continue to feed my family with my profits.
I have no problem with competition, because I just don’t think it will hinder me.
In fact, quite the opposite.
I will often call other investors when I see them pop up here and there and talk to them.
I introduce myself, and tell them who I am, what I do, and then try to find out what they do as well.
Why you may ask?
Simple, we may be able to put our heads together and share some info that can benefit us both, this is the very nature of networking in my opinion.
Over the last few days I’ve begun to see yet another investor place up signs in my target area.
I could have been “Worried”, but instead I called the guy up.
Turns out, he is trying to do many of the same things I am, but also has some different things to offer.
I will sometimes come accross a possible deal where there could be profit, but the things required to complete it are either beyond my grasp at the moment, or my plate is too full.
Rather than let that deal go undone, I’ll call one of the other local investors I may have spoken to who can take care of it.
I’d rather someone get this deal than let it sit undone.
And perhaps the favor will be returned.
Also, if I talk to a seller and they have something good, and I help steer them toward a solution, they might just pass along my contact info, or at least remember the guy who was kind enough to help them get help.
Tim, if someone called me with a deal in your area, and it looked juicy, I could not do it from here, I’m simply too busy in my own market.
But I’d sure call you and give you the info I’d gathered on it.
Hopefully you’d do the same.
You know “there are enough to go around”, and so do I.
If some other investor gets a stick in his craw because we are buying homes in the same area, then in my opinion he won’t last long in this business.
It takes a thicker skin than most just to be here.
Also, what about sharing deals?
What if someone called me and said they’d sell me a home for $.30/dollar, and it required twice as much cash as I had available now?
Sure, I could use hard money, and pay high interest, and tons of points.
But, I could also call some local “Competition” and offer to partner with them on it.
Half of any deal is better than nothing.
And the profit increases because we avoided the cost of hard money.
See my point?
I know I rambled here, but hopefully I made some sense.
So, “Yes Tim, there are enough to go around”, and I don’t mind telling anyone, no matter where they invest or how.
Take care,
Jim FL
I always vocalize it! - Posted by SCook85
Posted by SCook85 on August 08, 2001 at 22:34:05:
Tim,
You have an interesting point of view on that term. I never looked at it that way and still don’t. I always vocalize it amongst other investors in my local market.
I do it to encourage others to do more, to do better. I want to see those around me succeed. I back out of deals to let others have them. There are plenty of deals and I have plenty of them. I don’t need them all, and I’m happy to bow out of a deal to let someone else have a payday. I just go get another one.
I’m capable of taking deals from other investors, but I don’t. In the end I would like to see everyone successful and good friends, then being wealthy, hated and alone.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not implying that this is what you meant. But it is what I feel when I say the phrase “There are plenty of deals to go around”.
Happy Investing!
Steve
Great posts - Posted by Tim Jensen
Posted by Tim Jensen on August 08, 2001 at 20:33:50:
I really enjyed reading all of these posts. It is nice to see so many points of view. I probably misused the word competition. What I was really getting at is that once you start finding properties in a certain way, it will be copied. So, I guess the word I should use is copying rather then competitive.
I still stand by what I say.
Tim Jensen
Stewardship… - Posted by TRandle
Posted by TRandle on August 08, 2001 at 18:26:09:
Tim,
Below is one of my favorite posts by Alcorn. As a CPA and former financial analyst, part of my daily struggle is to remove the scarcity themes that are ingrained into my head. Skepticism, cynicism, win/lose, etc. are belief systems that don’t work well for me.
I firmly believe that most investors agree with your comments and I’ve recently had a similar discussion with some of my respected peers that would confirm that suspicion. That has also been my personal experience when trying to milk info from those I’d like to emulate, unless of course, they’re not in my market. LOL!
I’m with David on this one. There are plenty of deals to go around and I do vocalize it to my competitors. Your viewpoint that the other investors may be “taking” your deals stems from a win/lose and/or scarcity belief.
In fact, I answer questions at least weekly from other investors on how to do this and how to do that. However small my assistance, I have played at least some minor role in their successes. And yes, I’m creating more “competition” for myself and others already established. I’m working in an extremely competitive market yet I’m not very concerned about creating additional competition.
This business isn’t easy and those who will succeed would probably have done so anyway. I didn’t really have access to someone more experienced that would share whatever they knew (or most of it). It irritated me and I decided that I didn’t want to be like that. As David mentioned, my belief (taken on faith) is that what I give out will return. When these investors that I assist have overflow or a deal they can’t take down, I would guess my name would be near the top of their list.
So, to summarize, I think most investors agree with you and regardless of public posts expressing that sentiment, it can be confirmed by personal experiences of anyone trying to learn from someone more seasoned. I’m not saying that my beliefs and actions are the “right” way, only that that is something I strive toward.
This could become one of those great philosophical threads if some of the folks on your side would speak up. Thanks for starting it…
Here’s Ray’s post:
http://www.creonline.com/wwwboard/messages/arc_2001/arc_16/16804.html
Re: Enough to go around… - Posted by Potash
Posted by Potash on August 08, 2001 at 17:00:40:
It must be disheartening when Potash is the only one that admits to agreeing with you.
Re: Enough to go around… - Posted by DanT
Posted by DanT on August 08, 2001 at 14:31:36:
Tim,
I think there are enough deals to go around and don’t mind who knows it. Have I ever lost a deal to another investor, sure. Have I ever taken a deal from another investor, sure. Generally I don’t compete. I take a similar approach that David pointed out, I will step aside. Not because I want to give it away, but no one gets a deal if we are bidding against each other. I have never not been able to find a deal. Never. So why worry about it? I have coached a few new guys in my area and one recently bought a place that I would have liked to have had, he gave more than I would but he is happy and making money. I don’t want to clutter my life with worry as far as what the competion is doing. I offer a good product for rent, price it well, treat tenants with respect and expect them to adhere to certain guideline. And usually we hear things like “you are the best landlords we have ever dealt with”. That is being competetive in my part of the industry. As far as buying, hey, there is enough deals for everyone. DanT
Another factor… - Posted by J. Clifton
Posted by J. Clifton on August 08, 2001 at 13:07:54:
…to consider is that “competitive” investors may not really be competing with one another, depending on the primary type of deals they’re pursuing. One might be wholesaling, while the other is doing lease-options; thus there’s plenty to go around for everybody. One investor’s rejected deal (it’s too thin) may be another guy’s PACTrust, a sale a subject-to investor can’t negotiate because there’s too much equity/seller wants cash, might be a flip candidate’s dream. Maybe a “dead lead” exchange network could be set up in each investor-dense area, to help everybody “compete” to their mutual benefit.
Re: Enough to go around… - Posted by SueC
Posted by SueC on August 08, 2001 at 12:56:34:
I think if they are experienced investors, they already know there are plenty of deals, and so no need to say anything. I’m not sure that saying it out loud would convince or motivate an experienced investor to do anything differently from what they’re doing, and if this truism actually does motivate someone because they never figured that out before, then they are not experienced, and therefore not really your competition.
How’s that for spin?
How does that correlate… - Posted by David Alexander
Posted by David Alexander on August 08, 2001 at 11:48:07:
with competitiveness. You end up competing on other deals against other investors that is a rule of marketing or lack of, and then not screening well, not abundance.
Rarely, if ever do I compete on the same house with other investors… most of the time I’m the only one there… that’s generally a function of me letting the seller know I can and will solve their problem… and moving quickly… or providing the best solution.
On the few occassions where I have competed against other investors that I know… I just sincerely wanted one of us to get the deal… I have even sometimes stepped out of bidding. But, that is more because I dont always like bidding wars on properties that need alot of rehab… I’m used to the paint and carpet, cosmetic stuff… and I price my work and time of doing rehabs with more profit usually putting me out of the market.
Now think about this… say in your area there are 10 investors…
How many houses are for sale in any given area? 10, 20, 100, 1000, 5000, 10000?
How many houses do most investors handle at a time?
Would they tell you about them or flip to you, if they had too amny running at once.
If you help folks you invariably pick up deals just because of that.
I mean if an Investor (for most I know) pick up one or two deals a month then they are at full tilt. Why not be the one tha has refferred a deal or two to these guys in the past, or have given helpful info. It does become a source of more deals.
If you keep believing and your actions are such that there ain’t enough out there then that is exactly how the market will react to you also… call it karma, good will whatever?
My opinion anyway
Re: Enough to go around… - Posted by Doug (ON)
Posted by Doug (ON) on August 08, 2001 at 09:25:27:
I’m not really experienced enough to know that there are enough deals for everyone, but I believe there are. I too would not vocalize that belief as it INVITES competition. Someone may also see your success, hear you saying “There are plenty of deals for everyone.” And promptly get themselves into a mess because they don’t know what you know. I wouldn’t want to be responsible for someone losing their shirt, even though I only made a simple comment.
I think you have the right idea. If you find yourself competing with another investor over the same property, following your own guidelines would no doubt be prudent. By setting your own limit, you turn the tables, casuing the other person to possibly break their guidelines. You may lose some deals, but in the long run if they keep breaking their own rules to compete with you, eventually they won’t be able to compete with you anymore. While he/she’s been overpaying, you’ve been quietly doing your own thing, according to your own rules, and making more money, inspite of those few lost deals.
I don’t know if I made much sense, but that’s my two cents.
Doug
Re: Enough to go around… - Posted by JL in TX
Posted by JL in TX on July 04, 2002 at 22:08:15:
Steph,
Do you still have a class for newbies in Austin. I have read alot but would hate to lose my first couple of deals because of inexperience.
Thanks,
JL in TX
And you’ll be… - Posted by David Alexander
Posted by David Alexander on August 09, 2001 at 11:49:04:
be a crotchety old man with money and no one to spend it with… (I’m smiling as I type this).
Why not help everyone get wealthy and have lots of wealthy friends.
No to mention giving is good for the heart.
David Alexander