Horatio Alger must live - Posted by Hank FL

Posted by Brent_IL on October 22, 2003 at 13:39:44:

You couldn’t have quoted a more insightful man (Man?). I dusted off the Rocky DVD last night.

Horatio Alger must live - Posted by Hank FL

Posted by Hank FL on October 20, 2003 at 10:31:57:

Sorry folks, I just can’t let this go.

So I’m at Barnes & Noble to buy "The One Second Billio…I mean, “The One Minute Millionare” and a Joseph Campbell book.

I notice there’s a book that’s flying off the shelves across the store. I walk over and open it up and look for the “You’ll never be rich” chapter. I see it’s called “Horatio Alger Must Die”.

Hopelessness & hate, and yes, it’s #1 on the New York Times.

Horatio Alger was a guy that beat the odds and believed others could do likewise. Most that come here to CRE are on the same page.

Here’s an essay about Alger:


I wish I could delete the last sentence of that piece, for that point is not the one I’m looking at.

So what’s this gott’a do with real estate ?

Think about the last real estate seminar you’ve gone to. Think back to the courses the guy was holding up before the lunchbreak and later on again in the afternoon.

What did it say under the title ?

Most likely something about no/little money or credit.

Now think back to the people that filled that room. Do you think a good number of these folks are a little short on credit and cash?

These people that could have caught up on some sleep that morning. Look at the bags under their eyes.

So why are they there ? Why are they going to some crazy “get rich quick” seminar they saw an ad for in the paper that most of their friends laughed at?


Hope founded in the idea that success isn’t only for those with charmed lives that have won life’s lottery.

Horatio Alger must live.

Hope is Evil… - Posted by eric-fl

Posted by eric-fl on October 21, 2003 at 13:34:43:

What? Hope? Evil? How could it be? We need only listen to the ancient Greeks…

Most are undoubtedly familiar with the story of Pandora’s box. As a refresher, basically, they did a bad thing, and opened the box, which contained all the evils of the world. They were unleashed. Everyone felt bad about this. But then, at the end of the story, someone looked in the box, and there, lying at the bottom, was Hope.

(Bear with me… we’re coming back around to Real Estate in just a moment…)

This is usually interpreted as a way of dealing with the evils of the world. I’m going to go with a different interpretation. The Greeks, you see, weren’t as obsessed with happy endings as we are today. In fact, the only difference between a Tragedy, and a Comedy, as they referred to them was whether or not the protagonist was still standing at the end. The tale of Pandora’s box, is actually a brilliant parable. The true meaning is only revealed to those who are ready to see past the surface. Hope is not a consolation prize sitting at the bottom of the box - it was at the bottom, because it, was the greatest evil of all.

How can Hope be evil? Simple… when it’s used, as it almost always is, as a balm. An excuse for inaction. An “instead of”. Think I’m unique in this viewpoint? Consider what Benjamin Franklin had to say on the subject:

“Industry need not wish; but he that lives on Hope, will die fasting.”

That pretty much sums it up, more eloquently than I ever could.

So what’s this have to do with Real Estate? Everything. I, too, have been to the weekend seminars. I’ve seen people come in, get their injection of Hope, maybe even buy a course or two. And they are never heard from again. I’ve been guilty of this myself. Hope, when used as an excuse for inaction, is what allows people to continue doing the same unsuccessful thing, day after day, week after week, year after year. I would go so far as to say, the problem is so widespread, it even has Macroeconomic implications. After all, as you say, “wealth is not a zero sum game”. If that’s true, and if it is possible to create new wealth, rather than simply transferring it around - then, when people sit in their same comfortable rut, not living up to their potential, all because of the Hope drug, then doesn’t that up to lost productivity, across the spectrum of society? An “opportunity cost” of unconscionable proportions? I believe it does.

I further believe, that each of us has not just an option, but a responsibility, to maximize our potential. When we go to a seminar, or come to Creonline, or whatever, only to get our injection of Hope, and then go back to work, all the while taking no action to improve the lives of ourselves and our loved ones… THAT is evil. Notice, it’s not the seminar, or the website, or the course you bought, or whatever - those things are inert, in and of themselves. How you use them, what you use them for - like anything - determines their usefulness of purpose, or lack thereof.

Now, I doubt that is the point that Moore was trying to make - and certainly, I would be the last to espouse that “one should accept their lot in life”. But at the same time, if we don’t take responsibility for ourselves, and our lives, that’s almost worse. Ultimately, I don’t think Horatio must die, I think…

Hope must die. ACTION must take it’s place, and live.

Hank keep up the good work - Posted by John V, FL

Posted by John V, FL on October 20, 2003 at 13:17:54:

You are doing a great service to some people here. Unfortunately lots of delusional people out there think they have complete control of their destiny when it comes to real estate investing. Terming anyone who might discuss rising interest rates, devaluing of the dollar, stock market crashes, housing affordability for the middle class on the coasts or our current easy credit bubble as being political shows just how shallow many are. Many of yours (and mine) motivated sellers in the next cycle will be the unknowledgeable, overleveraged late to the party investors trashing you today.


Re: Horatio Alger must live - Posted by Brent_IL

Posted by Brent_IL on October 20, 2003 at 13:17:10:

In my opinion, your comments do belong here. All anyone contributes to this board is an opinion of their version of fact. I found the article thought-provoking and I appreciate you posting it. I also agree with sentiments of Jim FL wholeheartedly.

I wouldn?t delete the last sentence, but that?s me.

I don’t see this as political - Posted by Jim FL

Posted by Jim FL on October 20, 2003 at 12:35:22:

I don’t see your post as political in the least.

Seems to me the ONLY people(?) calling this thread and the others “political” are the ones who will not give any input.

Obviously they have not been around this board very long.
Sure, the rules say that discussion should relate to investing in real estate.
Does this mean we are only to talk about the technical aspects of deals, and seller/buyer interactions?
I think not.

Heck, a few years ago, many of us here felt like this was “our community” and we shared a lot of things here, some specific to certain aspects of this business and some others that were very general, but would apply to anyone seeking the DREAM of financial independence.

So, if someone makes a post about “Maintaining a winning attitude in all you do”, and simply gives us all an inspirational post that PUSHES us to perform at our best, would that be political and not related to REI?

Ignore these folks detracting and if the thread gets deleted, post it elsewhere.

There is no point participating somewhere that censors things based on anonymous posters requests.

and the comments about Moore…I’ve read some of his stuff, watched a few specials and movies by this guy.
Frankly, whether he has valid points or not, someone who in my opinion, would run into a crowded theater to yell “FIRE” is just not someone who will get my attention on any issue…even if they have valid points.
Kind of hard to take a naysayer serious.

Isn’t that where you were going with this?
How society today may not take the step toward seeking their dream, becuse of PROPAGANDA like this guy spews.

Hank, this will surely get my post deleted, but to be honest, I don’t care anymore, life is too short.
If you want to discuss things like this, and it is not tolerated here (there perogative, I respect that), then like I said, post it elsewhere.
I happen to know a place where it will be ALLOWED and ENCOURAGED to remain.


Because your points DO have relevance to those of us who ARE working our dreams.

Have a nice day Hank, and stay out of Barnes and Noble, its run by people from the LEFT! (kidding, just couldn’t resist)

Take care,
Jim FL

Review - DUDE, WHERE’S MY COUNTRY? - Posted by TomPaine

Posted by TomPaine on October 20, 2003 at 10:56:38:

Hank - you continue to politicize CREO, which I think is the wrong road to go down.
I sincerely hope the administrators delete this entire thread - once again - I think this will be the 3rd time - each time political threads you started.

They don’t belong here.

But, since you rail about Moore, and do this after reading maybe one page out of one book - I will post a review I found online.

Moore can be extreme, but makes a very good case, and his function is to shake things up - not to be a Paul Harvey character “My God - all is right with the USA - and every little brown person in the world would just LOVE to come here (Big Phony Smile)”

Understand Hank, you can be both a realist, and do real estate investing. Take off your rose colored glasses - and stop spinning here for the right.


Michael Moore
Warner Books
ISBN: 0446532231
(Full review at link above)

Give it a rest! - Posted by tompaine

Posted by tompaine on October 20, 2003 at 10:47:30:

Give it a rest Hank!
Your review of a chapter in Moore’s new book
is about as objective as mine would be for
Ann Coulter a.k.a. the voice of all that is evil…


Dr. Frankenfurter / A.I.D.A. - Posted by Hank FL

Posted by Hank FL on October 21, 2003 at 19:49:49:

That is a different interpretation of the Pandonra myth, but a good one I must say.

I’m thinking of an old Public Enemy rap now. The performer says, “there’s a chruch on one side of the street, & a liqour store on the other; both of them keep’n us poor.”

First off, this idea falls right into the Moore idea of hopeless victimology & immiseration, but that’s not what I’m getting at right now.

We all know that liqour stores have lots of liqour in them and that can be very bad, but why would a church “keep us poor”

I think this might kinda/sorta be what your getting at.

I call hope, or blind hope rather; faith. Uh oh, I’m going to get into trouble on this, but what the heck.

Hope w/out action reminds me of a convent of cloistered nuns practicing the power of prayer. You wanna pray for hours every day ? Fine, but take some action too. Go out, get some fresh air and help some people.

Similarly, hope in a vacuum is not good - perhaps even evil as you say.

Perhaps Marx should have said that hope w/out action is the opiate of the masses instead of religion being in that role.


Attention & Interest I think, are fueled by the spark of hope, w/out which, great things (and bad too I suppose) would never happen.

Decision & Action are fueled by desire, no?

If I may quote Dr. Frankenfurter of the Transexual Institute of Transylvania, “Don’t dream it, be it” :wink:

Hot coals - Posted by Hank FL

Posted by Hank FL on October 20, 2003 at 20:05:57:

I think you might be making a contrary point in a clever way.

I think that we should be optiminstic about our futures in a reasonable way. I’ve had friends that have taken the Amway kool-aid in a big way. I felt at the time that they were not saying things that were reasonable.

Having said that, would it be a better for one to be delusional in thinking that they can make it or the other way around ?

I guarantee you that there are MILLIONS more people that fall into the latter category. That’s sadder than hearing the Amway pitch IMHO.

Success is not a zero sum game. Meaning that for me to get my piece of the American pie, I don’t have to take it from someone else. The pie will get bigger from more economic activity.

Ya gotta be in it to win it.

Heck, some of those Amway people actually make $$$$.

That coal walking stuff has it’s place in the world and as silly as you and I may think it is, it’s a far better to burn your feet than burn your mind & soul with that “Face it, the world blows and is stacked against you, you’ll never make it, so just get used to it” poison.

I can’t imagine anyone stepping out of their comfort zone and onto a path of growth after reading and believing that awfull message that is a chapter in a best selling book.

The Hudsucker Proxy - Posted by Hank FL

Posted by Hank FL on October 20, 2003 at 23:07:28:

That line at the end of that essay just seems like it would turn off someone that might just otherwise agree with just about everything else in the piece.

I made a similar/worse mistake by misspeling M.Moore’s name a couple of weeks ago.

I was thinking about hope, dreams, redemption and those that “get their kicks by squashing on a dream” as Frank Sinatra sang it, when I posted what I did.

I think of the Coen Brothers film, “The Hudsucker Proxy” w/Tim Robbins, Jennifer Jason Leigh & Paul Newman. I watch it every year around the Holidays. That first scene really chokes me up for some reason.

Just a little cinematic recommendation I bet “tompaine” would even like.

Ahhh… but is it real estate related ?

Isn’t it telling… - Posted by Hank FL

Posted by Hank FL on October 20, 2003 at 20:24:10:

I have put up all types of posts over time here.

Recently I posted the “motivational” speech given by Alec Baldwin in “Glengarry Glen Ross”

It’s a scene filled w/explitives and cruelness, and was only related to real estate insofar as the meeting took place in a real estate office.

I heard nothing from the anonymous “tompaine” on that post. The delete police were not out that day.

Tompaine is a political website for those of you that don’t know.

I posted a slam about Rush Limbaugh the other day.

Nothing from “tompaine” on that.

I even squeezed boobs into a post about a dozen times - and it wasn’t a long post.

Again, nothing from the anonymous. I’m sure a couple religious people were offended but they didn’t demand deletion.

They were cool about it.

I remember posting about tort reform a while back. I was talking about the hot coffee case. “Tort Reform” is often a battle cry of the right even though the idea has gotten bi-partisan support lately.

Did Ben the lawyer from Jersey get all freaked out and demand that idea should be silenced ? This is political ! Delete this thread !

Nope. He entered into this arena of ideas and made his case in a thoughtfull way.

But I guess one must be a thoughtfull person to make a thoughtfull case.

Thanks for the post Jim, I hear ya.

Re: Review - Posted by Hank FL

Posted by Hank FL on October 20, 2003 at 11:16:19:

You have yet to tell me in your own words why the chapter “Horatio Alger must die” is a good message.

I’m not talking about all that politcal stuff that is also in that book.

Nope - just the chapter that tells people not to try.

Hank Symons

P.S. I’ve spent considerable time in countries where “brown people” as you see them, have little hope.

That’s why these people risk their lives to come here.

And this is the greatest place for those who seek opportunity in the world.

Sorry if that’s political, Senior Anonymous

What do you care what hank thinks?? - Posted by Brandon

Posted by Brandon on October 20, 2003 at 12:06:52:

Are you so deficient of reasoning that all you can do is allege that someone is politicizing the board? Lot’s of Investing topics could be related to politics, so whats your point? If you disagree with Hanks idea, state so and tell us why. Otherwise quit complaining.

Hey, Anonymous Guy, - Posted by Hank FL

Posted by Hank FL on October 20, 2003 at 11:07:39:

Never have I yet had a real conversation with a single soul here that can tell me why the, “Face it, You’ll Never Be Rich” message is a good one.

No real names, no real points & nothing uplifting.

And that Ann Coulter bait – ain’t gonna take it.

That’s 100% politics and is not allowed here.

Read the essay on Alger and tell me why his message of hope and hard work must “die”.

Why is it hopeless for those that come here that have never talked to a seller (40%?) to learn about this REI path to success?