How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by IB (NJ) on October 13, 2003 at 17:22:20:

Hi Terry. Please explain the ‘statue of limitations’ you’re speaking of? Are you saying that you know of some state’s statue of limitations where the lender has only 2 years to act on a delinquency?

How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by IB (NJ) on October 10, 2003 at 15:57:55:

I’m looking for an mortgage that was taken out in 1990 with First Fidelity Bank. I assumed that Wachovia had the mortgage but they have no record of it. Is there some type of database out there where you lookup where an old mortgage may have ended up once the bank merged?

Quiet title action - Posted by Randy

Posted by Randy on October 11, 2003 at 11:56:59:

This from Law.com - As Terry Y suggested
quiet title action
n. a lawsuit to establish a party’s title to real property against anyone and everyone, and thus “quiet” any challenges or claims to the title. Such a suit usually arises when there is some question about clear title, there exists some recorded problem (such as an old lease or failure to clear title after payment of a mortgage), an error in description which casts doubt on the amount of property owned, or an easement used for years without a recorded description. An action for quiet title requires description of the property to be “quieted,” naming as defendants anyone who might have an interest (including descendants-known or unknown- of prior owners), and the factual and legal basis for the claim of title. Notice must be given to all potentially interested parties, including known and unknown, by publication. If the court is convinced title is in the plaintiff (the plaintiff owns the title), a quiet title judgment will be granted which can be recorded and thus provide legal “good title.” Quiet title actions are a common example of “friendly” lawsuits in which often there is no opposition.

Here is the link: http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=1707&bold=||||

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by JT-IN

Posted by JT-IN on October 10, 2003 at 16:56:31:

IB:

Old mortgages should be recorded, with a micro film copy of such at the recorder’s office. In the 8th Series books, at least this what they are called where I am, it lists alphabetically and cronologically, recordings for mtgs, releases, etc.

A title company should easily be able to spot this with a quick check of the records. I am not certain what you are really looking for here, however… You seem to know that it exists, but Wachovia has no record of that… so did they absorb the original Lender…? Whey else would you look to them to have record of the mtg…?

It is amazing that this doesn’t happen more often, really. You may need to acquire a lien position secured by the property and then foreclose. The original mtg holder will not respond nor will Wachovia, and hence they dissappear… Bottom line is if a Bank acquired that original mtg and didn’t file an Assignment of Mtg, then there is no way to trace it out. It is the responsibility of the Assignor to file the Assignment of Mtg form…

JT-IN

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by Randy

Posted by Randy on October 10, 2003 at 16:13:56:

Who is the payment going to? There should be some info on the current lender.

Problem being… - Posted by JT-IN

Posted by JT-IN on October 11, 2003 at 16:06:06:

“such as an old lease or failure to clear title after payment of a mortgage”

When the Judge asks if the owner of record paid the mtg in full, and asks for substantiation of said payments… When you can’t produce those receipts and admit that the mtg is unpaid, but the mortgagee can not be found, then the Quiet Title Action falls flat… IMHO.

You could get lucky with a Judge that has had it with this Lender, or other breaks, but my guess is that QTA isn’t the way to go here.

Just the way that I view things…

JT-IN

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by Kristine-CA

Posted by Kristine-CA on October 11, 2003 at 09:03:15:

Greetings JT. I’m curious about your suggestion here to “secure a lien and foreclose.” How would the original note “disappear” if it was in first position? Even if IB foreclosed on his lien, wouldn’t he still have the challenge of getting the first re-conveyed (for title insurance purposes)?

Also…any suggestions for securing a lien on a property where you have no relationship with the owner? Seriously, if I could figure out how to do this, it sure would solve a couple of ugly title situations I’m working with.

As always, thank you for sharing your ideas and experience. Sincerely, Kristine

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by IB (NJ) on October 10, 2003 at 17:19:05:

Hi JT. Yes I have a copy of the original mortgage from the recorder’s office but there’s no record of an assignment. I’m trying to track it down so that I can negotiate with the lien holder. It’s a tax foreclosure that was initiated about 1 1/2 years ago so I don’t know if I have time to assume a lien position and foreclose myself.

From what I remember Howard Savings (of which I was a customer) merged with First Fidelity, then FF merged with First Union years later, and now Wachovia just merged with First Union. In NJ we’re seeing a lot of mortgages being assigned and purchased with mergers and the like with no public record. It seems my only hope is to ask around maybe look for old press releases. I don’t know, I’m kind of at a lost.

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by IB (NJ) on October 10, 2003 at 16:44:32:

Hi Randy. The seller hasn’t paid the mortgage since she defaulted on it before the merger. That was back in 1993-94.

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by JT-IN

Posted by JT-IN on October 11, 2003 at 10:22:37:

Hi K:

Your Question… “How would the original note “disappear” if it was in first position?”

The answer that I will give pertains to Judicial foreclosures and Mortgage States, and I get somewhat blurred from time to time as the differences in a Non-Judicial and DOT State, so in those cases I can’t verify how this would work… But back to Judicial cases…

In a foreclosure case where a Jr secured lien is foreclosing, all parties containing an interest in the property are notified via Certified or Regular Mail, considered “Service”. It is incumbent upon each entity with an interest in the property, such as the 1st mtg, or the owner, or any other lien, to respond timely to the “Complaint of Foreclosure”. If any party with an interest in the property fails to respond, (and this mtg holder would likely fail to respond), then they are forever barred from asserting an interest in the subject property; hence their interest is foreclosed. Then the sale occurs and their mtg is released from the property.

Now the Note is still a factor for the Debtor, as it is not cancelled, and the Debtor still owes the money to the Lender, but they have lost their security interest, called a Mortgage. (In your case this is called a Deed of Trust, but I realize that the rules are way different in your state).

Suggestions on acquiring a lien on a property, without this being granted by the property owner…? The only way to do so is to purchase an existing lien, then you have standing. You would purchase these via an Assignment, and then go about the business of accelerating the obligation, just as the original Creditor could have. Short of that approach, there is no real magic here…

Just the way that I view things…

JT-IN

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by Nate(DC)

Posted by Nate(DC) on October 10, 2003 at 21:12:09:

I think JT hit the nail on the head, which is that just because the banks merged doesn’t mean the loans followed. Lenders buy and sell mortgages all the time and who knows if this one was bought or sold somewhere and an assignment never recorded.

Do you have enough time to do a quiet title lawsuit?

NT

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by JT-IN

Posted by JT-IN on October 10, 2003 at 17:30:52:

IB:

Have you discussed this with Ben(NJ) yet…? This seems quite suited for some of his expertise…

I am quite sure that there is a better answer than I have given above, but it escapes me at the moment of how to go about this.

You may want to check at the State level for info about previous Bank mergers. The Secy of State should have record of such… if you know the approximate time frame. You may also want to check with the Federal Reserve, if they were Federally Chartered institutions, although the buraucrecy of that may wear you out first…

Keep digging… Another thought might be to do a search of newspaper microfilm… and there should be something there as far as an old merger of Banks. The only probloem here is that many times an institution may purchase deposits but not certain assets, like mortgages…

Wish I had more help on the subject…

JT

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by Terry Y.

Posted by Terry Y. on October 11, 2003 at 09:47:05:

My opinion is just do the “quiet title action” and get rid of this cloud on the title. Whoever this bank is, it sound like they are way out of their statute of limitations which I believe is generally about 2 years varying from state to state. It doesn’t sound like the lender has made any attempt to collect, foreclose, or send out any types of notices in a very long time, which is very suprising if this is a first mortg. I here of this situation with second mortgages all the time. Am I missing something?

Terry Y.

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by Kristine-CA

Posted by Kristine-CA on October 12, 2003 at 10:16:04:

JT: thank you for your reply. You are right, DOTs in CA are way different than judicial foreclosures. My understanding is that if I were to foreclose on any jr. lien, the first remains. And this certainly has been the case for a couple of people who have sold to me. After foreclosing on their jr. notes, they had to deal with large sr. liens. And then they are so burned out on the process, the vacancy, the repairs, etc. that they are ready to sell. Sometimes for much less than they put out to keep it.

As usual, I was hoping for some magic when it comes to getting a lien. When working with title problems that need probate work I sometimes get stumped. If there are heirs that are not cooperating or missing, I’m always looking for other ways to get the deal. I know about buying paper…I was just hoping there was something easier that I didn’t yet know about. :slight_smile:

Sincerely, Kristine

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by IB (NJ) on October 13, 2003 at 17:12:48:

Hi Nate. I’m assuming the ‘quiet title lawsuit’ is the same as the ‘quiet title ACTION’?

I’m not sure if I have time. The city initiated foreclosure over a year ago as it takes 1 1/2 - 2 years to foreclose on a tax lien here in NJ.

The seller gave me her SS # today so I’m going to make a few calls tomorrow to see if I can hunt it down. I previouls had the account number only.

Re: How do you find old mortgages? - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by IB (NJ) on October 13, 2003 at 17:14:19:

Thanks JT. I’ll give Ben a try.