I've had ENOUGH!! - Posted by Tyler

Posted by Rob FL on April 03, 1999 at 17:22:58:

Do some legal research on your own. Try www.findlaw.com. In Florida at least, all the statutes are on the internet. I just bookmarked the website and refer there with my minor questions. For major questions and legal details, see a lawyer.

I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by Tyler

Posted by Tyler on April 01, 1999 at 15:47:19:

Alright, I’m getting really frustrated at this point.

I have now had two agents tell me I can’t do what I’m trying to do.

First off, I tied up a fixer property listed through a broker at 86,000. It’s FMV after 7,000 in fixup is about 145,000. Now comes the tricky part: trying to show it to potential buyers with the agent around. How do you do it without running into problems? Not only does it seem very awkward, my last buyer got the number of the agent and is now trying to go behind my back.

Another agent tells me, that I really don’t have any “interest” in the property (to sell) until the property title is in my name. So consequently, all the buyer would have to do is put in a higher offer and the seller could weasel out of the contract somehow (and sell to the other buyer). The broker tells me that this happens all the time, and my only recourse would be to sue for specific performance, which would have a hard time holding up in court.


I hate dealing with these people who tell me this can’t be done, and then rattle off all this legal jive that they’ve “learned from years of experience” being a broker.

What am I missing? Tie up a property on contract. Find a buyer. Assign your contract to the buyer for the difference between your sales price and purchase price. Fill out an Assignment form, get the check, shake hands. Go home happy.

I guess this display of frustration boils down to three issues:

  1. the procedure of flipping when you have agents in the picture

  2. showing the property to buyers when you have agents in the picture

  3. wether or not you truly have “interest” in the property if the title is not in your name.

Help me…I’m going INSANE!

I’m confused? - Posted by Jim IL

Posted by Jim IL on April 01, 1999 at 22:28:46:

If you have the home “under contract”, then doesn’t your contract give you the right to access the home?
If it does, the agent need not be involved.
And, if they do, then cause problems, well, file a complaint, and show them what they personally stand to lose.
If you show an agent, (I still cannot believe we must point out something so obvious), that you will do MANY deals with them IF they treat you right.
Many small to medium commission checks, beats the heck out of one BIGGER check. Besides, your small ones will keep coming if they do a good job.
As for the sign, well, have them ad a little one to it that says, “pending” or some such word.(or do it yourself, a cheap set of magnetic letters from aCE hardware will suffice for the “Showings”. Just remove it afterwards.)
And if not, try to get access without the agent, and show up early to show. Remove the sign and replace it after the showing.
And of course, record a memorandum or contract with the county. Then your title will be “clouded” and will not be able to sell to ANYONE but you.
Good luck, and find a new agent.
There are good ones out there, they just sometimes need “teaching”.

Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by Rob FL

Posted by Rob FL on April 01, 1999 at 20:33:38:

I think JPiper hit it on the nose. The majority of your problems stem from having agents in the picture. Most of the agents out there think the only creative real estate that exists is when the seller holds an 80% LTV mortgage and you put down 20%. The first 2 reasons you stated are a big reason why I got my own license.

As far as the interest in the property, you have a contract to purchase the property. Yes the seller may try to dodge you and sell to someone else. I would remind both realtors that not only are they PERSONALLY risking a hefty lawsuit by possibly influencing the seller, but that all you need to do is register a complaint with the licensing board and they could be fined and possibly lose their license.

Of course, if the realtors are talking trash like that to begin with, do you really think they are representing your best interests??? Telling the seller things you didn’t say??? Hmmmm… Sounds like your “friend” should get fired.

Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by JPiper

Posted by JPiper on April 01, 1999 at 20:00:24:

The interest you have in the property is called “equitable title”. You have equitable title by virtue of the fact that you and the seller entered into and agreed to a written contract. Recording this contract will serve to cloud the title?.such that no title company will insure this without a formal release?.and therefore the seller will be unable to sell. Further an attempt on the part of the agent to interfere with a contract is called tortious interference. Have the agent call her attorney to see what the penalties are to this suit.

Let me just say that dealing with agents is part of what is creating all your problems?.and guess who decided to deal with agents to begin with?

At least if you’re going to deal with them, understand at the outset that the deals won’t be as good, that the agents will throw complications up around the deals, and that many of them are downright stupid. In other words, just accept reality. Getting hot under the collar or “insane” doesn’t strike me as particularly beneficial to YOU, and is a sign that you have simply ignored reality about agents.

You need to build your knowledge, so that the next time an agent presents you with an issue, you’ll know EXACTLY what the facts are, and can deal with the agent effectively.


Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by JohnBoy

Posted by JohnBoy on April 01, 1999 at 18:27:46:

Record your contract. That would prevent anyone else from being able to close on the deal behind your back. Tell the agent and broker that if someone came along and happened to make a better offer while your under contract already to buy this property that you suing the seller for specific performance will be the least of their worries. Rather they should be more concerned about you suing them for tortuous interference since you already have a legal binding contract to purchase the property.

Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by phil fernandez

Posted by phil fernandez on April 01, 1999 at 17:34:14:

If you have a house under deposit then the seller has accepted the offer and has signed the purchase and sales agreement. You now have an enforcable contract, which I would remind both the realtor and seller. If the contract is broken I would let both know that you are going full bore after the seller for specific performance.

The realtor saying contracts are broken all the time with a higher offer is sheer stupidity on the agents part. Realtor must not know the definition of a contract. Scary isn’t it.

Within your original offer you want to make sure you have the right to have access to the house. The realtor and seller don’t have to know specifically. I often say its to get contractors, partners or future tenants in.

And yes you do have an interest in the property. You have a contract on the property. I would have your attorney send a letter to both realtor and seller threatening legal action if this continues. Have your attorney send the letters by certified mail. Always seems more serious.

Isn’t It Great - Posted by Joe(IN)

Posted by Joe(IN) on April 01, 1999 at 16:24:01:

I havn’t done any flips but Just think. With all the Guru Wanabees out there, many of them are going to run into the same problems, AND QUIT! There goes the competition!

Keep at it.


Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by Sandy FL

Posted by Sandy FL on April 01, 1999 at 16:11:20:

Tell the AGENT the person you are showing the property to is a partner, carpenter, uncle or investor. Tell your prospective BUYER that if they want to buy the property, they have to buy from YOU. That is the purpose of tying it up on contract. If the buyer is in the investing business, you might want to let it drop that if they try to go around you on this one, there will be no more business from you. If anyone is in the business very long, they generally do not want to make enemies. We live in a small world.

At least, that is what I have seen done. Hopefully
your buyer understands your position. If not, asta la

And stop listening to agents who make 25k a year! If anything, they are probably jealous of your newfound career. Yes, you can sue for specific performance… would you? Probably not, but why tell them that. Let em think you have the baddest, nastiest, pit-bull-of-an-attorney on your side!

Yes, you do have an “interest” in the property. You have a contract. People buy and sell contracts all the time, for things dumber than houses.

I have to stop now, I am getting mad, too! :)))

Good luck, Tyler! We are pulling for you!

sandy FL

Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by David S

Posted by David S on April 01, 1999 at 16:08:32:

I’m wondering why the agent is around when you show the property?
You are not selling the property, you are simply selling the right to purchase the property at a specified price, terms, etc for a specified period of time. That’s what an assignment is all about.
The agent has no interest in whether you assign or not as long as your assignee (buyer) follows through with the deal and the agent gets paid.

So, who is telling the agent when you are showing the property?

David S

Let me clarify something - Posted by Tyler

Posted by Tyler on April 02, 1999 at 01:13:24:

I must make it clear, that the agent that I’m referring to as “interfering”, is only doing so in the sense that he is the one with the key to let me in to the house. I can’t show the house without the key. THAT is one of my problems with the agent. How do you get in without them???

The agent who was the one commenting on sellers being able to back out of contracts, is actually a broker. I don’t work with him, but I called him today regarding some of his clients who were interested in another property I have tied up. He called me before I left for the convention wondering if I had purchased this particular property (whose listing was expired at that point), based on a previous conversation we had about it. He was wondering because he evidently had this client who was interested in it. I told him yes, I indeed had bought it. Today I called him to tell him I had decided to assign my contract, and wanted to see if his client was still interested.

This is when we got on the subject of assigning, and he told me it couldn’t be done. He said I had “no interest in the property.” And besides that, the buyer could “go behind my back” and the seller could weasel out and sell to him. He said “trust me. It happens…I’ve learned the hard way.”

Right about this time, I’ve had a very bad RE agent day, and I had to post my urks.

Thanks for your reply, I hope this clarifies some things.


Work with Realtors…Don’t work with Realtors…HUH!? - Posted by Tyler

Posted by Tyler on April 01, 1999 at 20:56:45:

Thanks for responding, Jim.

Regarding the first paragraph, are you suggesting that I “record” the contract? I’m not familiar with this process, so if I’m understanding you correctly maybe you could advise.

Regarding the remainder of your post, you do have a point regarding the intelligence of agents…and yes, I have always realized this about the vast majority of them. When an agent calls me with a deal like this, however, I have a hard time walking away from it simply because I think they might “throw complications up around the deals.”

My insanity comes from struggling to complete a potentially profitable deal that I know would be a breeze if there WASN’T an agent in the picture. It’s not because I didn’t know ahead of time that they’d be a pain. I was hoping for suggestions on how to flip a property where YOU HAVE NO CHOICE of wether or not to work with the agent.

Regarding the issue of working with realtors, which you obviously are against (I’m assuming from your comment “dealing with agents is part of what is creating all your problems.and guess who decided to deal with agents to begin with?”):
I have learned through various seminars, books, courses, and posts here…all which occasionaly have conflicting information, that ultimately you must make a decision for yourself and do what works for you. However, this is a subject that I have always questioned, and hope that maybe we could all elaborate on it a bit. That is the subject of using Realtors.
There are many who preach that they are the worst people you could possibly have around, and there are the LeGrandes and others who say that “they can be worth their weight in Gold”.

WHY is there such a divided opinion on this?
I’m curious to know why people like you DON’T like to work with them. Why would you NOT want someone out there throwing deals your way now and then?

There is a difference between “working WITH them”, and being open to look at their deals. I’m really curious to hear the opinions of those who advocate NOT working with Realtors.

And yes, we all must realize that they are just that: opinions.

Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by Charles - DFW

Posted by Charles - DFW on April 01, 1999 at 20:33:14:

I think your post was right on the money!

One question, would filing a complaint with the board of realtors be any help.



Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by Laure

Posted by Laure on April 02, 1999 at 05:14:13:

Is the realtor aware that he is looking at another commission if you sell it?

Laure :slight_smile:

Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by Kellie

Posted by Kellie on April 01, 1999 at 18:16:18:

I wish like everything I’d found this site before we bought the house we’re moving to! Our realtor is also a friend, but sometimes he’d come away from meetings with the seller and her realtor with stuff we hadn’t discussed, or would tell the seller stuff we didn’t say- obviously we didn’t have to accept anything we didn’t sign our names to, but it was awkward when we had to send him back to correct the misinfo. Made US look flakey. What Carleton Sheets says is to always include a clause in your contract that says you will attend all negotiations in person with your realtor. When we learned that we both felt like, Duh! Of COURSE we should be there, but we didn’t know to request it!

Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by Kellie

Posted by Kellie on April 01, 1999 at 18:20:07:

> So, who is telling the agent when you are showing the > property?

They don’t give you a key until you close. The agent has to let you in.

Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by Reif

Posted by Reif on April 01, 1999 at 16:17:23:

Probably the prospective NEW buyer.

In my area the agent sign doesn’t come down until escrow closes.

You bring a new buyer by the house, they’re gonna see the sign.


Use Realtors to buy Ugly Houses - - Not Creative Deals - Posted by Jim

Posted by Jim on April 02, 1999 at 06:26:01:

Some investors spend alot of time trying to impress Realtors with their vast investing knowledge and make various creative offers.

You typically use Realtors to buy “Ugly” houses at a discount/cheap. You don’t use Realtors or MLS to construct creative deals. First, it takes too much time to teach uneducated Realtors what you are trying to do. Secondly, when you buy on terms there is usually no money down meaning Realtors don’t get paid at the time of purchase.

The rule of thumb is to buy “Ugly” or “Handyman” properties from Realtors by making 1 - “All Cash” offer, clean and easy to understand.


Re: Work with Realtors…Don’t work with Realtors…HUH!? - Posted by JPiper

Posted by JPiper on April 01, 1999 at 21:35:57:

As for recording, I would probably record a “memorandum of agreement” which would state that there is a contract on the property, that it will close on or before XX date, and that a copy of said contract can be obtained from you at your address. This would need to be signed by you and notarized and recorded in the county the property is located in. (I believe Bronchick has these in his Nut’s and Bolts course? but you might be able to get one at the title company, or ask your attorney).

I’m not saying I’m against working with agents?..matter of fact I happen to be married to an agent, and had a broker’s license for many years. What I’m suggesting though is that with agents come problems?.and you have to both acknowledge that and be prepared for it up front. I used to make a big deal out of how I never dealt with agents?although I have bought a few properties in the last year where an agent was involved?.just one more example of “never say never”.

But here’s my belief system: Most of the really good deals are NOT in the MLS. Now there may be some who disagree with that statement, but I don’t make it lightly. I’ve had MLS access for years?and currently have it?.so it’s a topic I do know something about. Having said that, I think there are some possibilities for deals through agents?.and I don’t shut them off. I have one agent who before he lists a property in a couple of areas I’m interested in, always calls me. If I’m interested he acts as a buyer’s agent for me for a set fee?..he doesn’t list the property. I have other agents who call me regarding their listings, most of which are not of interest to me.

In the situations where I buy listed properties, I insert certain things into the contract in most cases. One of those clauses gives me the right to enter the property on a 24 hour notice to inspect or show the property to contractors, inspectors, tenants, and/or buyers. Now, let me ask you this?..would this agent being having such a fit if you had this clause in your contract? In the past I have even had a clause which permitted me to put a sign in the yard (although I don’t use that these days because I’m not that concerned with the sign).

The biggest problem I have with agents is not their stupidity (not all agents by the way are stupid?just a lot of them). Rather, the agent is basically a barrier between you and the seller. Because of this effective communication is either reduced or eliminated in most cases. Effective communication is key to doing a deal. However sometimes you can prevail on the Realtor that you be present during the offer presentation. Sometimes the Realtor can actually become an ally in this presentation if you play your cards right.

Of course for us tightwads, of which I am one, I hate commissions as well?.so there’s always that factor. For that reason I will generally only deal with the listing agent. Having 2 agents simply doubles the trouble and means two people have to be paid rather than one.

As to why some people get their jollies off with Realtors, I can’t say. I haven’t read Legrand’s courses, so I can’t comment. But Legrand has lots of lines in the water, and he’s not ruling Realtors out. I agree with that. I would only say that communication is going to be reduced with the seller, and their will be additional fees in the transaction, and you may have to deal with the Realtor from hell.

How do you work with Realtors? Attempt to get in front of the seller when the contract is presented. Insert clauses in your contract that give you the right to do the things you need to do…like access the property. And know your business inside and out…so they can’t intimidate you with misinformation.


Re: I’ve had ENOUGH!! - Posted by johnman

Posted by johnman on April 01, 1999 at 21:49:01:


You must file your complaint with the TREC in Austin to be effective.