John T. Reed has won a battle. (LONG) - Posted by karp

Posted by CaroFL on April 25, 1999 at 08:46:39:

Or is it …

If you eat with a vengence you will catch a cold?

John T. Reed has won a battle. (LONG) - Posted by karp

Posted by karp on April 21, 1999 at 14:21:32:

I have to hand it to him…

In this weeks NEWSWEEK Magazine (4/26/99 release date), Jane Bryant Quinn, in her CAPITAL GAINS column gives her take on the “scambusters” of the web. Included as the ONLY hero and Scambuster in the Real Estate world is none other than John T. Reed.

To quote, Jane Bryant Quinn:

"Real estate: You can’t beat Reed publishes the Real Estate Investor’s Monthly, a newsletter for professionals, as well as eight highly regarded how-to books. His Web site lists 89 real-estate courses and gurus, and warns you away from 44 of them.

Reed slams the seminars, boot camps and self-delusion sessions , for which innocents pay $2,000 to as much as $10,000. Participants dream of learning the secrets of fabulous wealth. But there’s only one secret: most of these
guys get rich selling seminars, not investing in real estate. Some of their schemes are unethical or don’t work at all, Reed says. He steers you to courses (none taught by him) that charge a fraction of what the gurus want. "

for more information, please link to:

Now, where does that leave us? Well, you tell me. The message of creative real estate will always be there for those will hear, regardless of John T. Reed’s work. My argument is that by positioning himself as one “in the know”, he has elevated himself to a respected, expert status in the eyes of those who DON’T know.

So, does his opinion matter? Well, there are two sides to this. Let me be vocal about my side first.

No, John T. Reed’s opinions do not matter. On a mass level, I truly don’t care if people are getting good information or not. It is not my responisibility to sift through and do a consumer’s job for him/her. We must all do our own due diligance and in doing so, learn the very skills that will make us successful in this real estate game, if we decide to pursue it. To expect otherside is foolish and naive.

On the other side, many would argue that John T. Reed may be mistaken in his assessment of many “gurus” but performs a valuable service nonetheless. He exposes and “saves” the little guy from destroying himself and that is to be commended. (This argument doesn’t work for me for many, many reasons, discussion of which, however, will take us away from the point.)

The most effective argument on why John T. Reed’s opinions matter is one I cannot defeat and it bothers me slightly.

This site, set up by JP and Terry is not a government subsidy. It is not welfare. It is not a charity. It IS run to make a profit, hopefully a huge profit. And I would fight to the death to allow them the right to make that profit. JP and Terry make their profit through courses, seminars, advertising etc. Authors and Gurus make a profit through the sale of their information, seminars, etc. But you, the one reading this now, is the most important of all.

YOU make a profit by distilling all of this information, these books, the chats, the seminars etc. and applying it to the real world. And again, I wouldn’t have this ANY other way.

John T. Reed, by reaching a national audience as an accredited “scambuster”, has won a short term ECONOMIC victory. By positioning himself as an authority on Creative Real Estate, I believe the sales of his books and the author’s books he recommends will increase. I also believe those he nominalizes will feel a negative impact in their sales. That means most of “us”.

But, is this a “real” victory for him?

NO! The Market takes care of itself. Many will be drawn to his site who had never considered real estate as a method for breaking out of their socio-economic slumber. They may buy some books and begin to learn. But because INFORMATION creates the demand for more INFORMATION, eventually, these people will show up here.

They will be exposed to as free an exchange of ideas as is possible and will see the myriad of thoughts, opinions and ideas that get exchanged at a rapid fire pace. Our ideas here will be debated, improved on, dicredited where necesary and this site will continue to thrive and prosper.

The short term victory achieved by John T. Reed is shallow compared to the truth and clarity that we offer here at this site. I can only offer a sincere “THANK YOU” to Mr. John T. Reed for exposing this site to many new visitors who will hopefully stay awhile, join the family, spend lots of money and go out into the world of real estate and MAKE EVEN MORE!



The Egotistically Challenged John T. Reed - Posted by Baltimore BirdDog

Posted by Baltimore BirdDog on April 22, 1999 at 14:40:22:

Next to the stacks of worthless newsletters he puts out, it’s probably the biggest thing he’s got!

Probably the most unfortunate thing about Quinn publishing Reed’s comments is that people who might have considered REI as a way to improve their lives and deserve better information will get the opposite. While this will leave less competition for us, the other side of me wants to write to Quinn and let her know just how bad her source is. Of course, part of the blame lies with her. I mean, what would it have taken, ONE little internet search with the words “real estate” to turn up this site and many opinions contrary to Reed’s? Seems to me like a $325,000/year writer can do better. Just goes to show that you always have to consider the source of your information.

As far as the economics, it seems like either one of two things will happen:

  1. People searching for REI info will visit Reed’s site, buy his stuff, try his techniques to no avail. If they have the persistence required to succeed in REI, then they’ll continue and find this site and the great courses offered on it, OR;

  2. People searching for REI info will come directly to this site, discover immediately that John T. Reed’s opinions of other investors are worthless, and buy some of the great courses on this site.

Either way, I think the good guys win out eventually. In the meantime, we’ll just have to keep filling the gurus pockets ourselves. I know I’ve still got plenty of space on my shelves for courses which I need in the future.

Best of luck to you and everyone in their investing! See you at next year’s convention.


This is great news! - Posted by HR

Posted by HR on April 21, 1999 at 22:17:12:

I love the fact that a mainstream traditionalist has approved John Reed! What great news for us!

The truth is, all markets eventually do top out with competition. I want, though, for few others in my market to learn about the many creative techniques that really do generate wealth: land trusts, creative paper, lonnie deals, wraps, self-directed funds, asset protection strategies… The less my competition, the greater my success.

I know, I know… there are plenty of deals out there. There are. But there are even more with less competition.

Now, with Quinn’s mainstream blessing, Reed will be the man many will turn to (at least for his 45 seconds of fame) for rei advice. How wonderful! All the really good people and really valuable techniques Reed disparages! How wonderful! Because of Reed, many will now be inclined not to trust or use them. How wonderful! They are the very techniques and ideas that truly generate wealth. The more people that buy his nonesense, the less competition I/we have! HOW WONDERFUL!!!

This is great news!

The fools who perform shoddy due diligence about rei will listen to his shallow pronounciations and will take his advice. Boy will they pay the price for their laziness.

My only genuine sadness in this sorry affair is for the real pros who have shared their superlative rei techniques and secrets with us, and who have gotten slammed by Reed as a result. They have been unfairly judged and condemned, and the general public will not know any better. I’m thinking of Joe Kaiser, JP, John Behle, Lonnie, Bob Allen, Ron LeGrand, Carlton Sheets, etc. These folks deserve much better.

Reeds short-term publicity-victory, though, is not their loss. I doubt there are many people who go to bed at night and thank God for the information John Reed has given them. I know, on the other hand, that there are many of us who count our blessings for what we have learned from many of the folks Reed has slammed, for it is these folks who have tangibly improved our lives and the lives of our families.


Re: John T. Reed has won a battle. (LONG) - Posted by Zeus(ID)

Posted by Zeus(ID) on April 21, 1999 at 20:23:52:

Thanks for being there karp. You are one of the many reasons why I feel I have found a home here. I am more than happy to add you to my list of the “Wise Ones” to listen to on this board. I consider the information I pay for an investment rather than an expense. Even a single idea that costs $1,000 but gives you $10,000 in return is well worth it. Thanks for all the insite, ideas and motivation!


Re: John T. Reed-waste of $$$ - Posted by Nancy Cason

Posted by Nancy Cason on April 21, 1999 at 20:18:38:

I read reed’s book on taxes and real estate investors, and kept waiting and waiting for him to get to real data. I found that he misleads and misquotes tax law. I also wasted $125 for his newsletter, which is full of Reed glorifying himself. I do not think I got my money’s worth, I wish I had asked questions about him on this site prior to spending the money!!!

There’s a saying in French … - Posted by CarolFL

Posted by CarolFL on April 21, 1999 at 19:18:54:

that translated says:
Revenge is a dish best eaten cold.

Bon appetit!


Re: John T. Reed has won a battle. (LONG) - Posted by phil fernandez

Posted by phil fernandez on April 21, 1999 at 19:04:10:

karp, Buddy you got me worked up now.

What you said was excellent and I agree with you 100%. That is why you are successful.

John T Reed ( he thinks that T is important LOL ) is basically subsidized by Jane Bryant Quinn. Now I’ve seen this Quinn’s name. But who the hell is she and what is her expertise. What am I missing here.

Karp I think we all know how much this site has helped us all. Even old guys like me. In fact many of us including you have met the Vaughn’s in Dallas. So why keep on bringing up this Reed guy.

Do we really care what he thinks. He hasn’t done a verifiable deal in years.

My review of John T Reed in John T Reed’s Format . . . - Posted by Bronchick

Posted by Bronchick on April 21, 1999 at 18:02:50:

This is my review of John T Reed in John T Reed’s own perverse style:

"John T Reed publishes a ‘Real Estate Investors Monthly’ Newsletter for $129/year. According to his web site, he hasn’t owned any investment property since the early 90’s. Thus no new experience, therefore no new knowledge. Anything he’s done or experienced would presumably be written in his existing books.

Assuming his newsletter 8 pages, that means you are paying $129 every year for 96 pages of outdated information."


Great - I’m changing my name. - Posted by John Behle

Posted by John Behle on April 21, 1999 at 15:37:19:

What a wonderful time to appear on his list:)

I’m changing my name. I’ll now be known as Jon Hartley. No one would dare attack anyone they thought might be related to Karp.

Re: John T. Reed has won a battle. - Posted by Matthew Chan

Posted by Matthew Chan on April 21, 1999 at 15:26:16:

Funny, before I read your post, I was just responding to one about John Reed in the Cash Flow forum. I was speculating on the type of man he is based on his background as covered on his site. I believe that he is conservative and a traditionalist who has good information and materials to offer the industry. However, I think he is highly influenced by his educated and what seems to be an affluent background. Anything “too crazy or creative” is going to be shot down. Heck, he started in the RE business shortly after I was born! That conveys a hint of “old-fashioned” to me.

Regarding, Jane Bryant Quinn, I see her as an advisor for the risk-adverse middle class. I am avid reader of a variety of business and finance books but I never flip through hers. I have nothing against her or her information. I just think they are too conservative and “old-fashioned” for me. So the fact that Jane Bryant Quinn likes only John Reed is not really a shocker. Since I am an avid student of the RE business, I have ordered his materials to get a full view both progressive and conservative.

One thing that bothers me about John Reed’s approach is the way he wants to “challenge” the gurus by having them provide him proof beyond the shadow of a doubt. Now, I am wondering why the heck someone work so hard for one man’s approval. So Mr. Reed just takes interprets the silence as he won because “they” have not proven their case. It seems to me that if I was the one being challenged, I would just “give up” after a try or 2. It wouldn’t be worth my time or the hassle to followup.

Regarding pricing of seminars and courses, this is a free market. No one has to buy anything. Of course, as a consumer, I insist on accurate information. If the sales information is accurate, I will determine if a seminar/course is worth it. As you (Karp said), every consumer should do some due diligence.

On another note, if I were ever to become a GURU in this business, I would never make it too cheap. This sounds harsh but has anyone ever taught at a community college or any other class where it was cheap? Or a class the student didn’t pay for? Those type of students that attend give you the most headaches and have the worst attitude problems. Money, fees, tuitions help weed those people out: The people who are not serious or are naysayers.

Now, as a consumer, I am not saying or want everyone to raise their prices. I am just saying there is a certain reality that comes with higher prices. And why shouldn’t someone profit from their work?

Heck, I am nowhere close to a millionaire now but you couldn’t pay me enough to teach teenagers or any public sector worker. Talk about lack of attention span and naysayer attitudes.

Regarding the article, I could care less what it says mainly because Jane Bryant Quinn is not someone I would come to for life strategies. She projects a poor person’s mentality. If anything, it might keep the skeptics and naysayers out.

Thanks for the article and commentary.

Reed Recomends Lonnie - Posted by Kevin OK

Posted by Kevin OK on April 24, 1999 at 16:27:08:

After reading Karp’s post, I looked at Reed’s site. Doesn’t he recomend Lonnie’s work?

Re: John T. Reed-waste of $$$ - Posted by Sue (NC)

Posted by Sue (NC) on April 22, 1999 at 08:57:10:

Personally, I think the man has some (many?) screws loose.

But I really liked the tax book, and believe that it has already saved me a fair amount of money. I wouldn’t necessarily call if a laugh a minute, but considering the subject, I think it’s pretty darned good.

Curious… - Posted by JHyre in Ohio

Posted by JHyre in Ohio on April 22, 1999 at 06:46:00:


Which parts of the tax book didn’t you like? With the exception of the chapter on Entities, I thought it was pretty good, JTR’s other issues notwithstanding.

John Hyre

Re: John T. Reed-waste of $$$ - Posted by William, Columbus, OH

Posted by William, Columbus, OH on April 22, 1999 at 03:12:57:

Thank you Nancy, you’ve expressed my feelings (on Mr. J. T. Reed) as well. Especially the point on Reed glorifying himself. There is also another writer, that services the Note industry, who labors on & on until one gets sleepy waiting for the point. That is Mr. Howard Cook. Obviously, these writers envision themselves as very talented and get lost in their use of verbiage.

Now I remember… - Posted by Michael Murray

Posted by Michael Murray on April 25, 1999 at 11:14:43:

A hot dish served cold is the best revenge. Yeah! That’s it!

Michael Murray

Re: There’s a saying in French … - Posted by kev.

Posted by kev. on April 21, 1999 at 20:18:44:

I believe the saying goes…
Revenge is a dish best served cold.

I WONDER how much $$$ Jane B. Quinn Made Last Year… - Posted by raelynn mitchell

Posted by raelynn mitchell on April 22, 1999 at 08:51:40:

because I’ve always thought that if you wanted to make money–a lot of it–you had better be learning how from someone who MAKES a lot of money doing what you want to do.

Now if this woman only made $40,000 a year…then what difference does it make what SHE thinks? She cannot help me, as she has not reached goals I am pursuing. And it doesn’t matter if she’s a reporter or anything else. All that would matter would be, did she make money doing what I wish to do, and was it enough that I might be satisfied with the income. After all, you can’t learn how to be a millionaire from someone who’s net worth is not a million dollars. And as a consumer, it would be my responsibility, not the industry’s, to make sure the person I followed measured up before I forked over lots of money. (Quite easy to do with the internet. Try doing that in the early days of CompuServe–H&R Block’s Compuserve–at $12-$24 per hour!)

As a computer tech, I could make that $40,000 and still take 3 months off for vacation. But it would STILL be JUST a JOB. Nothing creative about that. With real estate, however, that might be one or two rehabs that might only take a couple of months of my time. Or it might be 8 flips/assignments to investors with cash for $5,000 apiece.

At the convention I have met people from all walks of life. And I’ve got to admit, I’m more impressed by someone with a $1 million line of credit who’s buying and selling houses than someone who may not even SEE that much money pass through their hands in their working lifetime, let alone someone who hasn’t bought or sold properties since early '90s. That means that i they’re a real estate investor, they have had zero income from their career for over 6 years. Scarey thought, and certainly not someone I would be inclined to take seriously.

Re: My review of John T Reed in John T Reed’s Format . . . - Posted by Lee Parker

Posted by Lee Parker on April 27, 1999 at 12:59:04:

I don’t know if anyone has told you yet, but Reed has made you the target of his latest rampage. His April newsletter devotes a page to debunking using trusts to avoid due-on-sale clauses and cites you as the demon who has lead us down this primrose path. If you don’t have access to it, I’ll forward you the copy.

Game, set, match. Bronchick does it again! (nt) - Posted by Baltimore BirdDog

Posted by Baltimore BirdDog on April 22, 1999 at 14:00:24: