Posted by Kristine-CA on July 18, 2007 at 22:51:09:
My understanding is that in CA, Medi-CAL is the federal program
administered by the state. As far as I know, all Medicaid is
administered at the state level. I have never seen the Feds go after
property or probate estates to get reimbursed in CA. Have you?
The reason I ask is that I would definitely want to know if there is
another agency or agencies that are separate from DHS. I have
researched and read hundreds of probate files and I read the recorded
doc index daily. I’ve never seen the feds place a med lien or or act as a
creditor in an estate. Maybe it works differently in other states. I
would definitely be interested in the name of a fed agency that
encumbers property for medical debt.
Seller in MN has property FMV ~$400k and recently went in to convalescent care. She may have already applied for Medicare and I’m being told she believes Medicare will not allow her to Quit Claim the Deed to her daughters so they can utilize the property to help pay the $5,000/month her care home will cost.
It definitely needs some work but I think a good L/O would help them offset the costs for their mother’s medical care in her final years.
How would you get control of this property before the government gets a hold of it?
Since Medicare only covers the first 100 days in a nursing home, I doubt they would perfect a lien on a patient’s house. This sounds like something Medicaid would do.
I want to thank everyone for their feedback on this matter. The seller is already receiving Medicare payments and basically has her house frozen until she dies when the government will sell it (after X number of years of neglect sitting vacant). After the government is reimbursed for the money it paid out to her care home any money left (as if) will be given to her daughters.
I had suggested they cancel Medicare, transfer title to the daughters, take some equity out of the house and L/O or rent it out to cover the payments while providing some cash flow until it sells or she becomes eligible for Medicare again. They could use the equity to purchase a few other income properties that would cash flow enough to pay for their mother’s care. Unfortunately, I cannot see the forest for the trees and her daughters believe they are better off with Medicare.
Finally, I have tried to approach this in a professional matter even though I did not intend to profit. So, I purposely referred to the people involved in general terms. In reality the seller would have been my aunt and her daughters my cousins. I was hoping to find someway to help them out in this dire time, but I cannot help those that don’t even see the problem.
If she applied for Medicare and they already know about it, you can’t. The government is very aggressive in grabbing assets to offset their costs. Further, in a lawsuit, you cannot get attorneys fees against the Feds even if you win.
Re: MN Seller and Medicare won’t allow Quit Claim? - Posted by gerald(tx)
Posted by gerald(tx) on July 18, 2007 at 14:52:29:
The story has a little lost in translation.
Medicare does not pay for nursing home care. Medicaid does. Medicaid is the program for people who are broke.
Medicaid has a two year “lookback” to assure one does not divest all their assets to relatives, then declare they are broke and Medicaid should take care of them.
Now the house can be rented out to offset her expenses while she is still paying out of her pocket. But if she requests Medicaid assistance, her house title will be held and sold by the gov’t after her death. If anything should be left over, the excess is given back to her heirs.
Re: MN Seller and Medicare won’t allow Quit Claim? - Posted by Kristine-CA
Posted by Kristine-CA on July 18, 2007 at 19:47:59:
Actually, in California the government is far, far from aggressive in
“grabbing” assets to offset their costs. Medi-Cal/Dept. of Health
Services rarely leins properties. Recipients of Medi-CAL do sign docs
that say that they understand that their estate will pay their debt. The
usual way that the DHS learns of a recipient’s death is when they are
notifiied when someone opens the probate, as is required by CA law.
However, if no one opens a probate, I can tell you that DHS is not on
top of the issue. As a creditor they can become administrator. It often
takes them years to do this (if they ever do) and there is an SOL on
collecton of such debts. There are also probate actions that transfer
title of real property via affidavits and petitions that do NOT require
notification of the DHS. Tell me it isn’t a government operation…
I have first hand experience with dozens of properties involving the
DHS. To be honest, I think the citizens of CA would be better served if
indeed the DHS did lien properties. The system in place now is truly
dysfunctional. There are all kinds of ways, with legal help, to hide or
spend down your assets to still be eligible and not have your estate
have to pay.
From an investor’s stand point, though, the system works for me.
Kristine
It does not sound like Medicaid is involved yet. The mother is free to sell the house and to use the proceeds of the sale to pay her nursing home costs.
Once the mother has exhausted all her assets, then she can apply for Medicaid.