my take on thousand of dollars seminars.. - Posted by George

Posted by judd on March 18, 2001 at 02:18:31:

Most local libraries have many real estate books. Why pay for what your taxes already bought. Check them out for free, read, take back and get the next one. I agree with the previous post. I have read many books but some names I remember after many years are:
Robert G. Allen, William Nickerson, Wade Cook, Albert Lowry. I am sure you may find newer ones or some you like better, but the base ideas in these books really are timeless. One of the books had a line which said: “Don’t wait to buy real estate. Buy real estate and wait”.
Also if you have not yet opened your new course, send it back for a refund. You can then buy it for about $50 on ebay.
Good luck to all,

my take on thousand of dollars seminars… - Posted by George

Posted by George on March 17, 2001 at 13:45:47:

This is my opinion, it is not the gospel according to George…

I feel that if somebody is just starting, a $3,000 plus seminar is not the smartest way. First a person has to now if this business is for him/her, second, those seminars tend to confuse many into believing that they have to keep spending thousands in order to do it right…

So many successful investors have their beggining with a simple book (Allen, Nickerson, Lowry, Haroldsen, etc)

I think that the best way to start:

  1. Investing in a good book like Robert Allen’s Nothing Down. Many successful investors have started just with that book! It may be old but still many of Allen’s ideas work. If you want to invest in more updated information, HOME STUDY courses like Sheets, Legrand, Bronchick, Beck, Whitney etc. are a good starting point, and sometimes all you need!! (I like Legrand, Bronchick and Beck on tax sales the most)

  2. Avoid the coaching programs ($3,000 plus). I just don’t like them. Many coaches ARE NOT successful investors theirselves.

  3. Assist to a local investment club.

  4. Supplement your knowledge by visiting this board.

  5. Go out and check properties…

  6. Make offers!!

  7. Join one of the CRE conventions

My opinion is only for begginers. When you become successful, if you want, you can attend expensive seminars, but you will pay them with your profits!!

Saying that, all boils down to a personal decision, if a new person feels that he/she needs the coaching program or to assist to one of those seminars, it is his/her decision, it may be what they need to go out and do it…


After 11 years of experience…I disagree!!! - Posted by Todd (MO)

Posted by Todd (MO) on March 17, 2001 at 22:57:03:

I’m afraid I am going to have to somewhat disagree with you on this one. I see many people, especially newbies who come on here proclaiming that all of the seminars and coaching is just useless junk (usually it’s the one’s who can’t afford it who complain the most). And some of it can be if you don’t attend quality seminars or get knowledgeable coaches/mentors.

I have been in this business for the past 11 years and have worked in various areas of it. Aside from that, I have a background in human performance and have studied the differences between entrepreneurs who succeed and those who struggle.

It’s no surprise that statistically, those who attend intensive workshops, and further educate themselves early on…tend to become more successful faster. And those who get a quality coach/mentor skyrocket their success even faster. Good coaches/mentors get phenomenal results by custom tailoring the coaching to the individual. Programs which are more into quanity than quality (such as CS), get minimum results.

Can you do this on your own? YES! Some people can, but most flounder around not knowing where to begin or how and often become frustrated and quit. Then there are the diehard “I’m gonna do it on my own and not spend a dime” individuals. Now, I am not knocking it at all. You can go out and do it all on your own and be proud of your accomplishment. But why try to reinvent the wheel. Back when this country was founded, even the most experienced outdoorsman knew the importance of hiring a guide to show them the way and how to navigate into unknown territory. I have met many who have proudly stated how they started in real estate without a mentor and only an inexpensive book to start. They did it all on their own with minimal expense. Well, that’s great…but the ones who ordered programs / attended workshops / hired coaches, typically blew them away when it came to cashflow and net worth. I have coached people and take it very seriously. I not only teach them about real estate but get into reshaping how they think, believe, and act. People that I work with are financially independent within 6 months, and typically into 6-figures in 12 months. I coach because I love to do it, my “real” income is from real estate.

When I started in this business, I got my hands on everything I could and attended workshops (and I was only making $9,000 a year). Within 18 months I had a six-figure net income from real estate, as well as a six-figure bank account. While dozens of other investors I knew teased me for “wasting” money on programs and workshops. Many were in the business many years longer than I was, and I made far more than they did.

You absolutely can do this on your own, I am not saying that at all. But I am saying that statistically, those who further educate themselves and those who get a quality coach/mentor become more successful faster.

If you ever need to have major surgery, which surgeon would you trust as being better skilled? The one who graduated from Harvard Medical School that took the best, most intense classes from the finest hand-on teachers? Or the surgeon who felt all that was nonsense and just learned it all on their own and didn’t attend school or have a mentor?

Real estate investing is not brain surgery, but there is a benefit to getting the best information, knowledge, and experience you can. And that difference will show up in your bottom line.

Continued Success,


Re: my take on thousand of dollars seminars… - Posted by Jason

Posted by Jason on March 17, 2001 at 14:33:43:

hi george, i am just getting started in the real estate
game and you seem to know whats going on with real
estate investing. you gave really good advice but i am
having a hard time finding the authors of the books you
recommended. can you help me out and give the first names of:Sheets, Legrand, Bronchick, Beck, Whitney,Allen,Nickerson, Lowry, Haroldsen, and any other advice would be greatly appreciated,thanks.

Re: After 11 years of experience…I disagree!!! - Posted by Mark (SDCA)

Posted by Mark (SDCA) on March 19, 2001 at 11:34:29:


I respectfully disagree. In my mind, there are 3 “types” of people.

  1. People who will pursue RE on their own. They will get the books, read the message boards, make offers etc. Obviously, the 3K is a total waste for these people. The money should be used for making deals.

  2. People who will do nothing without the seminar, take the seminar and still do nothing. My opinion is that these people are in the majority. They should really dump the money into some financial instrument but going to the seminar is a total waste.

  3. People who would do nothing without the seminar but who go to the seminar and then APPLY the knowledge. For these people, I agree that the seminar makes sense. I only question how many of these people there really are.


Re: After 11 years of experience…I disagree!!! - Posted by SteveCO

Posted by SteveCO on March 18, 2001 at 22:39:12:

Todd, you make some very interesting points, and I am curious to know what you would recommend to someone such as myself, who (like George’s situation) is trying to get out of the rat race as quickly as possible, has done a few small deals, has good credit, am in the process of continually educating myself through this excellent board and with courses, etc…What methods really have the potential to lead to the financial independence within six months that you describe, in addition to the coaching itself?

Great post, I wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying, just trying to add to my own knowledge and understanding of the specifics.

Re: After 11 years of experience…I disagree!!! - Posted by You make good sense

Posted by You make good sense on March 18, 2001 at 24:30:45:

I’ve read your post and once again you make good sense.I’m a part of the corporate middle management rat race, and have been trying to succeed in REI part-time hoping to make a full-time living doing so. I’ve obtained a real estate license in IL. and have had little success in both selling and investing due to lack of knowledge and little or no coaching. I’m serious about this business and want to work hard to become extremely wealthy and show those how think that the seminars and workshops are a waste of time that someone did benefit .I understand that learning this business from someone who is and has been a successful coach is paramont.I’m located in the Chicago area,so if you or anyone that you can recommend is willing to help educate me to 7 figures,I would greatly appreciate it.

Actually…we don’t disagree totally - Posted by George

Posted by George on March 18, 2001 at 24:24:01:

I agree with you that to further their growth, it is important to keep educating theirselves…It would be ideal that those first seminars are invested with the profits of their first deal or deals…

…Now, I think that before people decide to jump into REI without knowing, they have to find out if the business is for them, and the best way is by doing it without having to spend thousands!..

I have spent thousands in personal development and in education in my main business. I am starting to do the same in REI, but I already had the taste of some prior success in this area…Altough my goal is to reach what you seem to have accomplished in REI…

Now, about coaches, you mention a very important point:

“–Good coaches/mentors get phenomenal results by custom tailoring the coaching to the individual. Programs which are more into quanity than quality (such as CS), get minimum results.–”

…I am glad we agree here, most “coaches” outhere do not have the quality that demands thousands of dollars to hire…

I prefer for the beginner, and I am “kind of” one of them, to find a mentor/coach who we can emulate, a person like you seem to be, whose interest is more in helping and sharing your knowledge than the money you may earn from this association… If the newbie or me can find such mentor, then I agree with you, it would be a great decision…Sadly, mentors like you don’t come in those “serial packaged deals”, we have to find them…while we find him/her we have to go out and do it…

Anyway, we may disagree in some minor points, but I think that we may agree in the botton line…long term success goes to those who are better prepared…and act on their knowledge…

Thanks for your post…

Re: my take on thousand of dollars seminars… - Posted by George

Posted by George on March 17, 2001 at 16:10:40:

Robert Allen “Nothing Down in 90’s” (My favorite), “Multiple Streams of Income”, “Creating Wealth”, "The Challenge"
William Nickerson How I Turned $1,000 into Five Million in Real Estate in My Sparetime
Mark Haroldsen Äwake the Financial Genious Within. this book is hard to find.
Home study programs:
You can find all of them on these pages. Click on books and tapes or go to these links:
Ron Legrand
One of William Bronchick set
John Beck (tax liens)

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement!!! - Posted by Todd (MO)

Posted by Todd (MO) on March 19, 2001 at 12:48:07:


How do you predict who will fall into which category?

Let me clarify something for everyone. I am in no way saying that you can not succeed in this business without going to seminars and getting a coach. That fact has been proven many times. You absolutely CAN succeed and make money without these. The initial debate was that these are a complete waste of time. My contention is that for those that do get into this business and succeed, they would be much farther ahead in a shorter period of time with training and coaching than by going it alone.

Now, I propose the question again…“How do you predict who will fall into which category?”

For Type “1” people:
These people will do it on their own - sure! But I absolutely guarantee you that if this person attended additional training and had a coach, they would blow the doors off of people who go it alone. I’m not talking merely my opinion or theory here…I have done it with people. I know with absolute certainty that good training and coaching makes a difference.

For Type “2” people:
Yes, it is a sad truth that there are people who pay for and attend seminars and still do nothing. But how do you predict that? No one pays the money and attends seminars with a preplanned course of failure. If you convince everyone that getting additional training and seeking guidance is a complete waste of time, then many who would become successful would never even begin. Thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. That is the biggest tragedy. You cannot win a race if you don’t even enter it. Many, many type 2 people do nothing because of a lack of knowledge, fear of the unknown, fear of failure, low self-esteem, etc. This business works, and I have heard every excuse under the sun why it won’t work for someone. And they are just that - excuses! There are people who are blind and physically handicapped that are making a fortune in this business and some able bodied person is going to try and tell me why “they” can’t do it. Like real estate makes an exception for them? :slight_smile:

For Type “3” people:
This is the tricky part. How many of the type 3 people are really type 1 people to begin with? How many of the type 3 people were border line type 2 people that got just what they needed to become type 3 people? You see, you can’t just say, “Oh, you are a type 2 person, you shouldn’t even try.” No one is a “type” person, everyone has free-will and makes the decisions that lead them to the behaviors and outcome of the 3 types you listed. And any of the types can make different decisions that lead them to a different “type” outcome. The type 2’s may hear something at a seminar that leads them to become a type 3. If you sail a ship from one destination to another, you do not just point it there and it automatically gets there. You make a lot of minor adjustments (decisions and behaviors) along the way to keep on course. Some people are captains, some people need captains to show them what adjustments to make and how to get to their destination.

I’ll give you my 2 types of people that comes from Napoleon Hill’s book “Think and Grow Rich.”

Wealth Conscious people - Focus on what they will get out of something. The benefit they will receive. They realize that properly utilized, the money they spend will come back to them many times over.

Poverty Conscious people - Focus on what they will have to give up to get it. They are more afraid of giving up the money, than what they will get out of it.

Thanks for your input Mark, I appreciate the comments.


Steve! I owe you an apology!!! - Posted by Todd (MO)

Posted by Todd (MO) on March 21, 2001 at 24:39:57:

I was just going over the board and noticed that I had not answered your post…I apologize.

As far as “What methods really have the potential to lead to the financial independence within six months. . .”? I don’t particularly favor any particular one. Find what you are most passionate about doing and you will find it to be easier to accomplish. In other words, if you like what you are doing it will seem less like work to do. Pick an area of real estate and I will show you someone who made a fortune in it. What’s important is your approach to it.

A investment “strategy” that I favor, is income and cash. Build cashflow by creating income through l/o, rentals, notes. And build cash by flipping, rehabbing, etc. I did both simultaneously when I started by buying income property and pulling cash out at closing and doing rehabs.

Einstein once said, “Imagination is more important than knowledge.” As an entrepreneur, “Attitude is more important than knowledge.” Now granted, YOU WANT TO HAVE A GOOD LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE. But show me an investor that knows everything about everything, but does nothing all day. And an investor who just knows about one area of real estate, but is a motivated go-getter - and he will run circles (financially) around the other.

There are many ways to accomplish your goals in real estate…it is up to you to choose. But once you know what area(s) you want to go with, learn all about it and light yourself on fire (metaphorically, not literally…lol).

To answer your question, “What methods really have the potential to lead to the financial independence within six months . . .”? Two words:


Again, Sorry for the delay Steve. Feel free to email me if you have any further questions.

Continued Success,


Re: Actually…we don’t disagree totally - Posted by Todd (MO)

Posted by Todd (MO) on March 18, 2001 at 12:00:45:

Sure, we are not as far off as one might think. And I’m glad you picked up on the wording I used. “Quality coaches” are the key. Packaged coaching where one size fits all is simply an upsell for the business. Many of those coaches have some experience in real estate, but their “business” is the business of coaching. My business is real estate, my passion and hobby is coaching others to success (but I ain’t cheap though, lol, ;-)). The “packaged” coaching being offered out there is designed to have the student pays lots of money, provide them with some additional information and weekly coaching “pep talks”, and then blame the student if they don’t get results. I take responsibility for the success of people I work with. It is not my business, I don’t seek out people. I work with a few individuals at a time that have approached me about it.

When I mention the benefits of attending great training and hiring a coach…I am doing so under the presumption that the person wants to do this business. I agree that one should “want” to be an investor before spending lots of money, however I don’t think they need to go out and do several deals before they know this. No one works as a doctor to determine if they will like it before going to medical school. I also think it is a sort of “catch-22” to wait and use the profits from deals to learn how to make money in real estate. For some it may be necessary, but most can find a way.

You are also at an advantage George, you have had experience in business and know the importance of training and coaching. But many think of it as a waste of time and money.

Thank goodness we know better.