Posted by Lyal on December 02, 2002 at 08:27:37:
TC,
Sounds like you did well. Sounds too familiar to me. The last rehab I did (and it’ll be the last rehab I do unless something spectacular falls in my lap) was going great until the inspector came through and required a panel upgrade. That shaved 890 bucks off my profit (worst quote was 1350) but was one of those “real life seminars” that I won’t need again.
Glad it’s going to work out for you.
All the best, Lyal
Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by TC
Posted by TC on December 01, 2002 at 17:01:28:
I am rehabbing a house that does not have the electical circuits grounded Anyone have any experience with this?
My question is how do you go about grounding and do you need to just make sure that all the plugs are grounded or do you also have to make sure that the lights and switches are grounded?
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by Sparky
Posted by Sparky on December 06, 2002 at 17:56:49:
You can put in a GFI-protected CIRCUIT BREAKER that will protect all outlets in that circuit. Then they don’t need a ground.
If you do this you can stick with the 3-hole outlets as well, as long as each has a sticker that says “No equipment ground”
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by ScottFL
Posted by ScottFL on December 01, 2002 at 17:46:38:
Like the previous responses, check with your local codes. One thing I do in every house I rehab that has a non-grounded system is to replace all of the receptacles back to the 2 prong non-grounded. This way a grounded plug cannot be placed into a non-grounded receptacle. Almost every home I go into, someone has replaced the receptacles with grounded ones. I also replace all of the switches… One thing I cannot stand is a switch that does not give a strong contact. The cost of the contractor pack of switches is inexpensive.
Scott
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by matt
Posted by matt on December 01, 2002 at 17:22:29:
I have rehabbed many older homes for resale. Check with your local city officials. They probably don’t require that the plugs be grounded. In fact, the plugs on the sink may not have to be grounded but, may need to have GFCI’s installed.
Bottom line, check with your local officials.
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by Matt (MPD) IL
Posted by Matt (MPD) IL on December 01, 2002 at 17:20:13:
TC,
depending on the local code, you may not have to ground the outlets in your rehab.
When we fix up houses here in my town (NW burbs of Chicago) we are only required to update the electric if we open the walls up and expose it and make changes to the existing wiring. If we are removing plaster or old sheetrock but leave the existing wiring intact we are not required by code to update the circuits. The additional wiring costs could force us over the budgeted rehab amount by thousands of dollars if we had to re-wire the whole house.
Check with your local code enforcement officer or ask them to get you a copy of the current codes for you to inspect with your electrician and decide how to proceed.
Depending on the type of wiring you’re dealing with, it may not be possible to ground the outlets without adding conduit and that is not an easy task. Opening every wall in the house to run conduit could prove extremely expensive when you add the extra costs of new drywall, mud/tape, prime/paint etc.
Many of the houses we deal with on a regular basis are from 30 years old and older and most have very old wiring in place. With that said however, I’m not an electrician and codes vary widely all over the country (not to mention from town to town) so you’ll want to check with your local, licensed electrician (one that you can trust) to help make the decision of whether or not to update your entire system.
Good luck.
Matt
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by naser
Posted by naser on August 28, 2003 at 02:28:47:
thank you
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by TC
Posted by TC on December 01, 2002 at 18:01:01:
Would you at the very least install GFI’s in kitchen and bathrooms?Of course they would have to be grounded but that would be as easy as making sure the breaker box is grounded and run you a ground wire back to the GFI.
I am always trying to cover myself in case of a accident.
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by TC
Posted by TC on December 01, 2002 at 18:04:44:
Thanks for you input Matt.
If you install GFI’s ,I thought that that was part of the GFI system to be grounded.Is this correct or am I wrong?
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by TC
Posted by TC on December 01, 2002 at 17:53:11:
I have had two electricians tell me that they had to be grounded but I also had two others mention nothing about it that were also bidding on the job of upgrading the panel so that I can install C/H/A.
I guess that the best thing to do would be to call the city to see if they can tell me what the code is.
All of the contractors are telling me how slow it is so I am a little concerned about them possibly trying to create more work (more money).
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by JohnFl
Posted by JohnFl on December 01, 2002 at 21:03:33:
Actually, GFCI outlets do not have to be tied to ground to function properly. The safety function of the outlet works based on the current draw between the hot side and the return.
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by James Strange
Posted by James Strange on December 01, 2002 at 18:53:24:
By doing this yourself you could open yourself to a big liability.
If the house was built to code when it was built it should be grandfathered. Now if you are going to use this house as a rental you my need to hire a licensed electrician to do this for you.
Before you do anything you should contact whoever does building code enforcement for your area.
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by matt
Posted by matt on December 01, 2002 at 18:40:27:
There is a sticker in every GFCI box that says, “this plug not grounded.” You stick that on if there is no ground wire. A GFCI will work without a ground because it monitors balance of current between the hot and neutral only. Your local inspector may or may not allow the sticker. Or…the local inspector may require that you install a ground on the kitchen and bath plugs. Again, check with them b/4 you do anything.
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by Matt (MPD) IL
Posted by Matt (MPD) IL on December 02, 2002 at 07:46:24:
You’re right to be somewhat concerned. As I mentioned in my earlier reply, you’ll want to speak to an electrician that is licensed in your local area (if that’s required where you are as it is here) or at least one who is familiar with your local codes. If you had already budgeted in your rehab estimate for gutting the electrical and replacing it as well as the drywall, trim and paint that will be necessary then this of course is not new news. If you only anticipated upgrading the box as you’ve talked about, redoing all of the wiring could turn out to be a huge overage.
Generally speaking, electricians get around $60 per breakout (outlet, switch, fixture) to run new wiring. This cost will include running conduit and grounding as necessary. Unfortunately, especially during slower times, I’ve had them charge as much as $15 more per box when they had to cut through existing plaster and remove old knob and tube, bx or romex wiring. Figuring in an average room size of 10x10, 3-4 wall outlets, 1-2 switches, 1 fixture = 5-7 breakouts @ 60-75 per = 300-525 per room for wiring. This cost does not necessarily include fixtures themselves. Average house of about 7 rooms x 525 per = 3675.
All of the above is speculation of course, your local milage will vary.
Try to find someone you can trust to look over the local code with you to get a good understanding of what must be done before you get someone working on it.
Good luck.
Matt
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by TC
Posted by TC on December 01, 2002 at 19:46:21:
I will retail this after completing.This is my concern as to not have the liability issue here.
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by TC
Posted by TC on December 01, 2002 at 18:53:18:
Thanks Matt
TC
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by Lyal
Posted by Lyal on December 01, 2002 at 20:02:13:
TC,
As the previous answers indicate the requirements vary widely by locale. You need to talk to your local building - saftey / code enforcement people. They’res is the only opinion that matters here. Tell them what you have, what you want to do and they’ll tell you what they they require (I don’t need to tell you that you should have had this question answered before you bought the place do I???) B-)
All the best, Lyal
Re: Old House.No Electrical Grounds.What to Do? - Posted by TC
Posted by TC on December 01, 2002 at 20:23:11:
Thanks for the input Lyal.I guess if I had of caught this prior to buying that I would of had it answered.
I called one of the contractors and he gave me a price of $750 to upgrade the panel,ground all the circuits and run and hookup the a/c/ and heat .Says that he will bring it up to code for that price.Labor only and I pay for materials.
I think that I have enough in the deal to make it fly after all is said and done.Was a little concerned at some of the prices that I was getting though.