Op Ed on Bandit Signs - Posted by Andrew

import · February 12, 2002, 8:41am

Uh Oh! - Posted by Andrew

Posted by Andrew on February 12, 2002 at 09:41:34:

…I’ve awakened the gods!

Hi David,

Thanks for responding! I appreciate it and certainly respect your opinions. You’re writing style makes it kinda tough to make some sort of general reply, but I’m gonna try to do your post justice.

I don’t follow your comparison to legal billboards since they are erected with the permission of the land owner. I got no beef with that. Heck, you want to stick a sign in front of my house? I’m sure we could work out a deal.

In fact, I don’t lose any sleep over bandit signs, but it does bother me a bit when folks (particularly other REIs) don’t take responsibility for their actions. If your gonna do the crime…

As for my personal driving habits, please see my post to Brian below.

You seem like a stand up guy. I think you realize that it’s a game and posting bandit signs illegaly is a risk you’re willing to take. You make good money from them and you feel the benefits outweigh the costs. Fine.

I’m not trying to convince you or anyone else not to use bandit signs, but to accept the consequences (good or bad) if they do. I agree with you on the anti-sign folks, there are better things to do with ones time. However, be careful not to use their actions to justify your actions.

I know you do plenty of business and help lots of folks out of bad situations. Your use of bandit signs has contributed to that. I sincerely admire your success and the success of many others. Here are a couple of questions for you:
Do you think you could have the same amount of success without using bandit signs?
Are deals so scarce that you couldn’t find them through legal advertising methods?
If I somehow took your ability to use bandit signs away would your business fail?

Those are the questions I asked myself and decided that I’d rather not be bothered with hard to trace 800 numbers and code enforcement/anti-sign zealot phone calls. I don’t come from a scarcity mindset and I know you don’t either. There are plenty of legal ways to advertise and many deals to be found. So that’s why I no longer use bandit signs. To each his own.

You comment about how you dress shows your complete and utter ignorance of my vast collection of Hawaiian shirts! No, not the kind you find in department stores. I’m talking the cheap ones with Hula girls and beer cans. You couldn’t embarass me if you tried.

-Andrew

P.S. I bought my bandit signs from you! Kudos on the “Subject To” course, it’s well done and I like the CD format.

import · February 11, 2002, 9:42pm

Nice post (nt) - Posted by JM

Posted by JM on February 11, 2002 at 22:42:12:

nt

import · February 12, 2002, 6:48am

Re: What I was looking for… - Posted by Andrew

Posted by Andrew on February 12, 2002 at 07:48:47:

Hank,

I’m sorry if you thought my post was directed towards you personally. I don’t want to offend you or anyone else, just thinking out loud and looking for the opinions of others. Maybe I should have waited a day or two to make my post.

You’re certainly not that first person to receive a negative response to bandit signs (I’ve been there!), and rest assured you won’t be the last.

-Andrew

P.S. I take it you wouldn’t call a M.D. off of a bandit sign either.

import · February 12, 2002, 6:39am

Re: Op Ed on Bandit Signs - Posted by Andrew

Posted by Andrew on February 12, 2002 at 07:39:39:

Thanks Tim, I’m glad you responded to my post. You seem to have picked up on the personal responsibility issue I tried, somewhat unsucessfully, to illustrate.

As for your situation, you didn’t “work around the law”, you complied with it! If anybody (e.g. agents, competitors, code enforcement) calls you are able to defend yourself because you are not doing anything illegal.

Now, do two wrongs make a right? No they don’t, but the pro-bandit sign folks seem to think so. Some, not all, feel that they are somehow justified in posting bandit signs (illegal) because some clown is running around ripping them down (also illegal). Both acts are illegal and neither justifies the other.

I certainly agree that bandit signs are effective, no argument there. However, I disagree with the Robin Hood logic that since we are helping our customers (i.e. Motivated Sellers and Buyers) that we are justified in breaking the law.

Actually, this is starting to remind me of a Charles Givens example called the “Ballpark Principal” (I think that’s it, been a while since I read it). Basically, he says to play by the rules so you don’t have to look over your shoulder and spend energy making excuses. Makes sense to me, but I’m one that likes to fly low and avoid the radar.

-Andrew

import · February 12, 2002, 6:27am

Re: Op Ed on Bandit Signs - Posted by Andrew

Posted by Andrew on February 12, 2002 at 07:27:01:

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your comments, I’d like to address a couple of them and hopefully that will clarify my prior post.

I certainly don’t think that creative real estate or posting bandit signs is immoral whatsoever. If that’s what people took away from my post then I definitley need to work on my writing.

My point is that if you knowingly do something ILLEGAL, don’t point fingers elsewhere when someone calls you on the carpet.

I do not defend the actions of the anti-sign zealots, they need to get a life. My post is about taking responsibility for our actions, legal or illegal, and being good stewards of our communities.

As for your speeding example, yes I do speed and I’ve gotten my fair share of tickets. However, I did not tell the cop “But Officer, everybody else speeds! Why don’t you stop them?” That’s a weak excuse and avoids taking personal responsibility.

So what do I say to the cop? Not much. I give him my license, he writes a ticket, and I pay the ticket. I don’t complain about it or act like some sort of victim when I get caught doing something that I know is illegal.

Brian, I respect your opinion and I hope this clarifies my point a bit.

-Andrew

import · February 12, 2002, 2:48am

HA! REVERSE THE TOPIC! - Posted by Joe M.

Posted by Joe M. on February 12, 2002 at 03:48:57:

Bandit signs work very well! I use them for my non-rei business and they are extremely effective on the job site. I place them in friends yards and to any customer I can talk into it, “how’s a $10 off sound as long as you promise you’ll keep it out for one month and tell me if it gets stolen or knocked down” Works often. Maybe i should talk them into putting my REI signs instead! I haven’t tried any yet with REI so I was wondering where you guys Place yours that is most effective? At intersection I figure but maybe nailed on telephone poles they’d stay or in the ground with steaks and just hope they stay up for a while?
I’ve heard they’re is companies that do sign placement, where would you go about locating them, and whats a good price?
thanks and keeep up the marketing, it is the life blood of business! Joe M.

import · February 13, 2002, 8:59pm

Andrew speeds… - Posted by Hank

Posted by Hank on February 13, 2002 at 21:59:54:

therefore his distian for all illegal acts are worthless. That’s the exact point I’ve been trying to make for days.

This morning I beat the snot out of my wife and kids and stomped on the cat before heading out for the day. I then collected rent money of which 100% I will pocket because I will not pay the underlying loans which I took subject to. Then I went down to meet w/my corrupt appraiser and mortgage broker to work on this weeks illegal flips. After that I went to work out the details of a silent second. I was hungry for lunch at this time but I had to burn down one of my troubled ALFs for the insurance money. I think most of the old buggers got out before the gas blew… And because you do 63 in a 55 you should have nothing to say about it. … Come on, man.

Because Andrew breaks the speeding limit in a minor way that brings no harm to anyone, perhaps he might look upon the harmless practice of street sign advertising in a similar way.

It seems there are more thin skinned people around than ever these days. Open the paper or turn on the news and what do we see every day? … Too many stories of people or groups of people getting riled up over the small stuff in life.

Getting upset over bandit signs is such small stuff.

Getting upset with Andrew because he sees things in a different way is even smaller.

import · February 12, 2002, 9:12pm

I guess I see it like this… - Posted by David Alexander

Posted by David Alexander on February 12, 2002 at 22:12:39:

If you go to the boards where these guys are so heartily against Signs…

You’ll see a story they tell about a guy getting fined… He was putting up 1,000 or so a signs a week here in Dallas…

From my understanding he was fined 2k… and then threatened with a fine for 50 signs held in escrow to the tune of a grand or 2 a piece…

Now from what I know of this… he was selling computers and the signs said he would finance anyone… so you take a computer he could build for an average of $300 bucks or so and sell it for a grand to $1500 on paper… sell the paper even at enormous discounts and and he made a killing… I’m guessing millions… Do you think think the fine really bothered him…

Now I do remember his signs… they were everywhere…
Bottom line it was business for him…

Now the point… I dont think the cities viewed it as big a deal as you would think… fining a business a couple of grand, when he probably made that in an hour… and doing it… so late in the game… when they actually had to do something because it probably did look bad at the level he was doing it…

I think after a while he made his money… and quit…

Advertising and marketing will continue regardless of us little ole investors throwing out a sign, two or three…

David Alexander

import · February 12, 2002, 8:25pm

Can’t believe I’m gonna say this to you JohnBoy… - Posted by JohnBoy

Posted by JohnBoy on February 12, 2002 at 21:25:46:

I’m not saying no one has ever posted here whinning about this. I just said I don’t recall ever reading about it here. I’ve read posts on this issue, but I don’t recall seeing where someone whinned about it.

I’ve noticed others sat they put out their signs while police pass by and just waive to them. I’ve never been called by a city inspector over this so far, but I have had police call me over it! City and State police both! Threatening to hunt me down and fine me for each sign if I do it again in their city limits!

Hey, no problem! I just move on and stay outside of those city limits after that. The nice thing is you usually get off with only a warning the first time. I don’t know what they would actually do the second time since the first warning was enough for me.

But since I seem to be attracting the police instead of city inspectors I tend to try avoid any seeing me putting the signs out! LOL

I’d hate to have to run into one after putting all the signs out one night and then be told to take them all down, now, or get fined for each one they see left up! I like to at least get a day ot two out of them before having to go back and take them all down again! LOL

But I’m certainly not going to whine about it! I know they have ordinances against this that carry a fine, but that’s the risk you take. As far as I know they can’t put you in jail for it. Only fine you for it! So what is there to whine about? What good will it do anyway???

import · February 12, 2002, 2:35pm

Sorry…that was supposed to be, Switzerland. (nt) - Posted by Glen SoCal

Posted by Glen SoCal on February 12, 2002 at 15:35:11:

.

import · February 12, 2002, 12:13pm

Hmmm, makes me wonder… - Posted by Andrew

Posted by Andrew on February 12, 2002 at 13:13:19:

Hi John,

I think they’re danged ugly too, but apparently David and others don’t.

Hey, I wonder if David has a bandit sign in his front yard? LOL!

I mean, why not? It’s certainly cost effective and wouldn’t take but a minute or two. Heck, it might even be legal, not that it matters.

-Andrew

import · February 12, 2002, 10:20am

First Thanks… - Posted by David Alexander

Posted by David Alexander on February 12, 2002 at 11:20:45:

For the last comment…

Second…

My writing is style comes out more the way I think and talk… that doesn’t translate always well, without inflection… not to mention I’m the slowest and worst typist in the world… Lol.

Third…

After this last post post, I don’t really see your point… who has said we don’t take responsibility… but, on the otherhand… I do tell folks that they could get a prepaid cell phone and then they cant be traced… I don’t think it’s irresponsible to do something in a way to avoid folks that would threaten you…

I personally don’t use 800 numbers… or anything to avoid… I Use a voicemail with my cell phone number…

I have never been called by the CE’s… I have been called a few times by folks who say they dont like them… (once, rightly so, when one of my guys actually put a sign in their yard mistakenly…) less than 5 times this past year…

Funny thing is these people never call me direct on my cell… they always leave a threatening message and never use their name or leave a phone number…

I believe real folks can discuss things as your doing here…

I guess, I misundserstood when you said were always fighting the perception as RE Investors… Hence, the comment about the clothes… but, it meant as a illustrative story to make a point, not a literal one… At first you are fighting perception because generally family and friends and think you have gone nuts… because it’s against the grain… and everyone believes your seeking get rich quick, or stealing little old ladies money… after a while they come around or they don’t… it doesnt matter to you because you know your on the right path…

Ok… some answers…

Do you think you could have the same amount of success without using bandit signs? I think that I’d be successful regardless… but, that’s me… but, as I said earlier, signs are steady and without competition… and too big a bang for the buck to ignore… I wish I knew about them years earlier…

Are deals so scarce that you couldn’t find them through legal advertising methods? I’ve already answered with above… it’s about good use of money and time… Your mileage may very… for me it works and if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, although I did ahve some trouble with my guys that put them out recently…

If I somehow took your ability to use bandit signs away would your business fail? Nope… but, I doubt that’s would ever happen… remember what big business wants…big business gets… businesses (or the people owning them) actually make the rules… and have more money to sling around than the folks that go out and remove them… and not to mention… last year I decided to start another business… and at the point this whole sign thing became more proliferate, more folks became aware of signs… at least here… not saying we are the sole responsible ones… but it became more of a thought…

But, we(Invstors) are a very segmented group… and so are most of the folks(other businesses) that use signs… and lots of businesses come and go… that’s why those guys (activist groups) will never keep up… New folks crop up… and the education starts over… for them, because most don’t know the ordinances… and then they do the same illegal things they say they are protecting… by either putting stickers on the signs… or cutting them up and leaving them… which is worse a sign with an advertisement or a cut up sign left… it doesnt solve their end goal… They actually believe we know the exact location where they cut up our signs and think this is a warning to us… but, that’s how employees think… Oops went off on a tangent…

Bottom line, not everything works for everyone… and I think you should choose what works for you and gets the desired results…

I am working a few new ones (marketing plans) myself… One, Actually involves signs… and is not illegal… It’ll really tick those guys off… if it works… after all they aren’t just after bandits… but all advertising… I think they all should move to the hills… then they might be happy… at least until they discovered animals use advertising too and mark their territory…

Their are also others I’ve wanted to try but never did… Once I figure out exactly how it will all work, I’ll post for others to test as well… just small ideas so far…

David Alexander

import · February 12, 2002, 8:17am

The politicians use them more than anyone! - Posted by Hank

Posted by Hank on February 12, 2002 at 09:17:52:

I think you might have not understood me. I didn’t take it personally. My post wasn,t well written, so it’s no suprise you got the wrong idea.

I complimented you on your using logic and reasoning instead of attacking me personally like the individual that called me yesterday to light up my life.

Oh yes , the politicians. The hypocrisy. In my area , and perhaps even yours , what does one see for two to three months before the first primary of every election year? Those guys put up more signs in the right of way than anybody. LOTS more. I mean it’s not even close. Those signs are much bigger and much
louder than mine as well.

So it works out to 6 months every two years or more that they ignore their own law. 1/4 of the time.

I read your point below about speeding…When I’ve been pulled over for speeding, I don’t complain. But I’ve never been pulled over by a real estate investor. When the cops see me sprinting from corner to corner of an intersection at four in the morning they don’t stop or warn me. Some even smile and wave.

I wonder what they think might be more of an important thing to stop, speeders?, or a small businessman busting his humps at 4;00 am?

Anyway back to the politicians. … When they stop, I’ll stop.

Hank

import · February 12, 2002, 10:29am

To each his own… - Posted by David Alexander

Posted by David Alexander on February 12, 2002 at 11:29:30:

I guess I’ll stop posting signs when I/you/others stop going 60 - 65 (occasional 70) in a 55 on the highway…

If you can choose which laws to break, why can’t I…

It’s your own internal radar… that guides you… I dont feel immoral in anything I do… And feel quite in the whole what goes around, comes around department… it’s actually something I pay alot of attention to…

David Alexander

import · February 12, 2002, 11:23pm

Sign Placement. - Posted by Jim Kennedy - Houston, TX

Posted by Jim Kennedy - Houston, TX on February 13, 2002 at 24:23:49:

Joe,

To find individuals or companies that do sign placement, try the following:

Ask your sign maker.
Ask investors at your local REI club.
Call the phone numbers on signs you see around the area and ask them who they use.

Hope this helps.

Best of Success!!

Jim Kennedy,
Houston, TX

import · February 12, 2002, 10:35pm

If they taxed beer… - Posted by jim

Posted by jim on February 12, 2002 at 23:35:41:

If they taxed beer (or anything else) here like they do in Sweden, there would be a second American Revolution. If one were to put up signs in Sweden or Switzerland like they do here, they would be behind bars. This is still the best country, even though there may be a social security crisis.

import · February 14, 2002, 2:43pm

Re: To each his own… - Posted by Andrew

Posted by Andrew on February 14, 2002 at 15:43:23:

David,

Sorry I’m replying to this a couple of days late, didn’t see it down here. Your post illustrates a couple of the points I’ve been trying to make. By the way, I’m happy and thankful that we’re able to have a friendly debate without the any mud slinging.

Anyway, here’s my answer(s) to your post:

YOU SAID: I guess I’ll stop posting signs when I/you/others stop going 60 - 65 (occasional 70) in a 55 on the highway…

ANSWER: Please don’t use my actions or the actions of others to somehow justify yours. When did I become your moral/legal/ethical compass? Our actions are independent and unrelated. So if I stop speeding, you’ll stop posting bandit signs? Yeah, I didn’t think so.

YOU SAID: If you can choose which laws to break, why can’t I…

ANSWER: You can do as you choose, you’re a soveriegn (sp?) individual. Why do you need me as an excuse?

Let’s forget about legality for a minute. Do you drink? I certainly do, even though I know it has negative effects on my body. In fact, I think we should be able to take drugs (e.g. marijuana, cocaine, etc.) legally because hey, it’s your life. However, I’ll also tell you that it can really mess you up and even lead to death. It’s your choice, it’s your life, be prepared for the consequences of your actions. See what I mean?

YOU SAID: It’s your own internal radar… that guides you… I dont feel immoral in anything I do… And feel quite in the whole what goes around, comes around department… it’s actually something I pay alot of attention to…

ANSWER: If it’s your internal radar that guides you then why do you care if I speed? I don’t use your posting of bandit signs to justify anything I do. What comes around goes around…hmmmmm, sounds like the modern form of the Golden Rule.

I hate hypothetical examples, but here’s one for you to consider…

Let’s assume that you own a vacant lot somewhere in your town. One day while driving around (not speeding!) you see some guy placing a bandit sign on your property. How do you think you would react?

Would you say, “Geee, what an enterprising and creative fellow!” Would you want the sign removed? Would you return, throw away, or destroy the sign (don’t forget, that’s his personal property!!!)? What if it was a big 'ol Microsoft billboard, would you react differently than if it were just a little ‘Work at Home’ sign?

I wouldn’t let it go, regardless of who did it. I’d ask him how much he plans on paying me for placing his sign on my property. It’s my property, not his!

Guess we could just apply the Golden Rule…

I don’t want anybody putting anything (signs, litter, whatever) on my property without my permission, therefore I don’t put anything on others property without thier permission.

I respect the property rights of others and I expect others to respect my property rights.

Here’s your Final Exam question…

In other posts you’ve mentioned a number of reasons you use bandit signs (e.g. cost effective, helping others, etc.), so do you have one in your front yard? If not, why not?

Sometimes our actions conflict with our beliefs/values, that’s probably why I didn’t feel too good about placing my signs on the property of others. To me, it just ain’t right.

Thanks for humoring me David, this thread has really made me think about my own actions and decisions. I’m sincerely not looking to change your mind, just challenging your logic when I see a flaw. I’ve seen plenty of flaws in my own logic at times.

Thanks,
Andrew