Posted by phil fernandez on March 14, 2007 at 07:17:32:
Hey Dave,
I’m mentoring a waitress at Sarduccis at this time. Later today we go down to the courthouse and learn about how to research evictions ( tired landlords ) and foreclosures. I’ll make her an “equity hunter” in no time.
How are things in Wisconsin.
Physicians VS Real Estate Investors - Posted by John
Posted by John on March 13, 2007 at 11:44:30:
Who do you think is happier and has more money? I was in a debate with a medical doctor friend of mine and I think I am much better off than he is by investing in real estate. I felt like I was in kindergarten, but he basically said I was a looser though I could probably buy and sell him. I just listened and thought… ohhh. It started when he said I should go and get an advanced degree. I told him I would rather take the money and spend on real estate investing courses… Made me feel really low. Has anyone else come into this?
Re: Who is miserable? - Posted by Amir
Posted by Amir on March 14, 2007 at 13:25:02:
Long, but a funny and good story.
One day GOD asks one of his prophets to bring him the most miserable creature He can find and bring it to him.
On his search the man finds a poor woman with his child begging for food. He thinks: “this must be a very miserable person”, but He decides to search more.
Later, He finds an old and blind poor man on the street and He tells himself: "He must be the one!? Then He notices the old man has a dog with no feet. He decides to take it to GOD. As he is carrying it, the dog starts to act like a dog and the man really enjoys being with the dog.
Immediately, He puts the dog down and goes back to GOD.
“GOD, you asked me to bring your most miserable creature in my judgment. But the more I searched, the more I realized that I can not be the judge of that, and perhaps I could be your most miserable creature.”
GOD replies: "You were one step away of being the most miserable if you had walked in the door with the dog?.
Re: Physicians VS Real Estate Investors - Posted by Natalie-VA
Posted by Natalie-VA on March 14, 2007 at 11:26:30:
Happiness for me is doing what I want, when I want, how I want. Can your doctor friend do that?
Start calling him around 10:00 am everyday and ask if he wants to go golfing, or to lunch, or to the beach, etc. “What, you can’t get away from the office? Oh, that’s too bad.”
As far as who has more money, that has more to do with how you manage your money rather than what you do for a living. My husband and I live well within our means and have more money than many people who have higher incomes than us.
–Natalie
Lawyer’s View of Doctor’s Satisfaction - Posted by Jimmy
Posted by Jimmy on March 14, 2007 at 07:28:52:
I represented docs and other professioals in my tax law practice from 1985-2005. The world of medicine changed dramaticaly in that time.
when I started, I worked with many successful, high-income docs. in all types of practices. but over the 20 years that followed, managed care sucked a great deal of the juice out of many practice areas, and re-directed the profit upstairs to the execs.
in the later years of my law practice, I almost never took on docs as new clients.
docs who were making 500-600K in the 80’s, saw their incomes cut in half by the 90’s. and they were working harder than ever.
I should say that the dentists and plastic surgeons were exceptions, and their incomes grew nicely. but managed care has not figured out a way to handcuff these guys.
Can You Elaborate? - Posted by Jimmy
Posted by Jimmy on March 14, 2007 at 07:23:36:
Can you be more specific? What precisely were the arguments made by the MD?
Re: Physicians VS Real Estate Investors - Posted by Edwin
Posted by Edwin on March 13, 2007 at 23:14:46:
How much education do you have past high school, John? Just curious.
Was he talking about money or something else?? - Posted by Tom
Posted by Tom on March 13, 2007 at 21:19:34:
Money is an easy measuring stick, and says very little about a person. Intelligence, analytical skills, education, worldly knowledge, etc. make you a better person. Was he talking about the fact that he helps people lead better lives, saves lives, etc. and has a good understanding of how the world works from spending his life getting educated? Or was it just how much money someone makes (and can easily lose…)?
I’m not taking sides, but I’ve been around some “professional real estate investors” who were plain stupid, annoying, and didn’t understand anything else in life. They couldn’t carry a conversation about anything other than real estate and TV shows.
There is one guy in particular who owns about 25 commercial units in the downtown where I live, has a ton of money, and actually said to me the other day “I don’t understand why its so cold today and all these people are talking about global warming?”. He also wrote a letter to the editor of our local newspaper a couple of years ago where he used the terms muslims and islams interchangeably. Fortunately, he doesn’t have kids so the gene pool is a little bit safer…
Anyway, was the doctor being condenscending solely due to money or for some other reason? Mike Tyson once had more money than me but I don’t admire him or want to be him…
Re: Physicians VS Real Estate Investors - Posted by Ed in Idaho
Posted by Ed in Idaho on March 13, 2007 at 20:20:54:
Wow! Who’d have thought that this question would bring up such different points of views on THIS website. Ask ten different people you will get eleven different answers. Anyway you are just fine. I think you just got blindsided for a moment by a one-upper. Someone who just has to have everything better than you no matter what it is. If that is the case, next time you are with him show him your portfolio of diplomas(titles, deeds, deals) and start speaking in financial language. That’ll shut him up.
Still broke when they retire - Posted by John Behle
Posted by John Behle on March 13, 2007 at 19:19:10:
I read an interesting article close to thirty years ago in Physician’s Quarterly. I was new into real estate investing and was familiar with statistics about the lack of wealth most people have when they retire. The majority of people are in pretty poor shape. Not too many have met their financial goals or never even had any goals.
I was quite surprised to read how Doctors and other high income professionals faced nearly the same statistics as other people when it comes to retirement. Bottom line is that a small percentage will be financially free upon retirement and a very small percentage will be wealthy. Added to that is the tendency for Doctors to be under-trained in financial areas. Many are notorious for bad investment decisions and fall prey to investment advisors that walk away with the majority of the money.
So, their big income will not result in financial security unless they learn to invest safely, securely and profitably in other words something like real estate. At some point they will have to learn what you have or find someone with your knowledge to be able to achieve their financial goals.
Should they be proud? Yes, they are highly educated. And a smart real estate investor will get a similar education, but unfortunately may not get such exciting initials in back of their name. A CCIM after your name may not impress as many people as a PHD, but it might mean a lot more in regards to a fulfilling financial future.
There’s a lot of good answers in these posts and I think the question is of value for several reasons.
If you feel the way you do, it’s valuable to know and deal with it now. You need to deal with the confidence factor for your own good and for your success. Keep in mind, your feelings are entirely your own. It’s possible your doctor friend was putting out little of the intimidating or ?put-down? attitude you felt. Remember “ALL PERCEPTION IS PROJECTION”. Your feelings are your own and may have little to do with what someone else is thinking or saying.
But yes, Doctors can be very egotistical and he may have put out those vibes. But, if I was in the same room as your friend I believe I would feel little of it and would not care. I ignore it and even if someone is trying to be intimidating it has little or no effect. A couple years ago I was at dinner with some of the absolute top heart surgeons in the world. My only discomfort was being the only one in a very nice restaurant without a suit as I had not brought one on my trip. If I was not comfortable with who I am, what I do, what I know and my profession, I would have bailed out a window.
People feel what you are going through. If you feel intimidated people feel it and that is going to be harsh on your business and relationships. Immediately read “Winning Through Intimidation” by Robert Ringger. It is one of the most important books you will ever read - or re-read. Otherwise, people will intimidate you and use it against you.
A couple nights ago a couple Dobermans wanted my rabbit for a snack. When I came out I think they decided on a much bigger meal. Within a few moments they were running down the street quite sure that they were now on the menu. It’s about attitude, intimidation, positioning and confidence.
A lot of confidence can come from education. The depth of your real estate education can equal or exceed your doctor friend. And it should. Don’t just read a couple books or take some expensive guru?s training. Learn every day from many sources for the rest of your life. Learn every area of real estate. Know more about real estate than your friend knows about medicine and experience the resulting success. Confidence and success both come from within. Don’t get caught up in the trappings of wealth and the look of it. That is a substitute and can actually be a sign of insecurity. If you need a nice car, Rolex, nice suit, etc. there may be a problem.
Some people might have seen your question as trivial. I see it as essential. Not in the way you asked it, but WHY you asked it. Education will help your confidence, but there is much more. All the education in the world will not make someone confident. In fact, education can be held in the same way as an expensive car. People flaunt degrees like they would a Lexus. Again, educated, but not necessarily confident.
There are inner workings that drive the confidence. No one is irreparably damaged from childhood or other experiences, but everyone is damaged. Someone becomes an adult carrying with them their current level of self confidence created by family, environment, circumstances, etc. Some stay that way. Others move on and create a new reality for themselves through healing the past, developing a strong self image and choosing the beliefs that determine their patterns of success. There are seminars, trainings and methods to help in that area that are too extensive to get into here. But, although my education and experience give me confidence, the personal development trainings I have taken have a far greater impact than any of the real estate education.
Happens all the time. - Posted by GL(ON)
Posted by GL(ON) on March 13, 2007 at 18:17:00:
At least it used to happen all the time. I stopped talking about real estate because everyone seemed to take it as some kind of insult, or opportunity to tell me what a loser I was. This usually came from someone who didn’t have two nickels to rub together and never would.
It’s unusual for a doctor to have such low self esteem. I guess it will be more common now that doctors have become low level bureaucrats and not professionals.
Do you know the definition of a professional? It is someone who is independent of a boss or a job, who makes his own decisions and answers only to his clients and his professional peers.
By that definition a real estate investor is a professional but most doctors are glorified wage slaves.
Re: Physicians VS RE Investors - No Challenge! - Posted by Terry Vaughan
Posted by Terry Vaughan on March 13, 2007 at 17:46:37:
John:
Doctors are historically stupid when it comes to investing. Your friend is showing his ignorance. Getting a degree is not the same as becoming educated. I can’t tell you how many doctors I have had come to me over the years to invest their money, because they didn’t know what to do with it.
That being said, I am very happy when a doctor earns that degree, adds to it by spending some years in practice, and is there when I need him to do his medical thing for me. For which, I am happy my real estate money is standing by to purchase his knowledge, however narrowly focused.
Feel good that you are on the road that gives you more choices, and more freedom.
Most doctors choose their path because they are encouraged by their friends and relatives, who figured as a doctor, one can have an acceptable position in life and get rich, putting their hands inside and on other’s bodies.
Your Friends and relatives encouraged you (maybe) to go to school and get a good education. I’m sure they thought that was the road to success and money!
Luckily you didn’t listen to any of them and became a Real Estate Investor (by however you did) and realized in doing so,(I hope)that the education that everyone was encouraging you to get (although they didn’t know it) was to learn to speak, write and practice the financial language. You could get rich by putting your hands on the papers, checks and documents of other?s bodies. (Much cleaner work).
To spend your time learning anything else is now gravy to your purpose. A luxury that only those who learn to think like a producer will earn.
Good for you. But don?t let other?s who are jealous cause you to lose sight of your progress, and accomplishments.
Re: Physicians VS Real Estate Investors - Posted by Josh Hayden
Posted by Josh Hayden on March 13, 2007 at 13:09:42:
I agree, Grow Up! Your friend probably makes hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, Last I checked, docs make at least 100,000/year. They go to school for 10 years, what do you expect? You spend 500 bucks on a Real Estate Course and you’re going to be the next Donald Trump? Get Real, Get Educated, Get a Real Job. Use your job to finance long term real estate goals for your retirement. The odds of anyone living off this in the interim are slim. Thats whats wrong with this country, people don’t want to work.
Re: Physicians VS Real Estate Investors - Posted by Brian_wa
Posted by Brian_wa on March 13, 2007 at 12:43:43:
No matter how rich you are, you should always try to further educate yourself and try to be more knowledgeable in other fields beside real estate. It makes you more well-rounded and makes you an even more valuable asset to yourself and the rest of the society.
I think your friend gave a good advice but you don’t need to get a degree. A degree is for someone who needs to get a job. For a successful investor like yourself, you shouldn’t have to necessarily go and get an advanced degree. Just take a few advanced courses that you might enjoy.
For instance, if you have a child who is so good at basketball that he got picked to play in the NBA after just 1 year in college. With his multi-million dollars, would you still want him to get more education or would his money be enough?
Don’t ever deny yourself of knowledge and better education.
Brian
Re: Physicians VS Real Estate Investors - Posted by Sgt.Sausage
Posted by Sgt.Sausage on March 13, 2007 at 12:13:05:
Grow up!
Why should you give the slightes rat’s arse as to what someone else thinks of you and what you do for a living?
This is a sophomoric, high-school issue.
==> Made me feel really low
Why? I’ve never given a single sh*t about what someone thought of me.
Repeat after me: “I don’t need anyone else’s approval. I’ll do what I like, the way I like to do it!”.
There. All better now.
Re: Physicians VS Real Estate Investors - Posted by phil fernandez
Posted by phil fernandez on March 13, 2007 at 12:08:38:
I’d rather be the real estate investor. Doctors have only so many hours in a day and in a week that they can work to generate money. After maybe 8 or 10 hours a day the doctor is tired and has to go home and sleep while the real estate investor’s properties are producing income while he sleeps 24/7.
The doctor then has limits to the amount of money he can make verses the real estate investor. The real estate investor has the potential to make unlimited amounts of money. The doctor can not lever his money the way the real estate investor can.
When the doctor retires, his income is shut off while the real estate investors properties keep on churning profits.
And my guess is that we as real estate investors have a whole lot more fun doing what we do compared to the stressed out, tired doctor.
Re: Physicians VS Real Estate Investors - Posted by luke
Posted by luke on March 13, 2007 at 12:06:45:
They are two different things.
You have to do what you love.
The best advice I recieved from a very rich uncle was “Figure out what you really love to do and then figure out a way to make money doing it.”
There are pro’s and cons to every profession.
THANK YOU John Behle for being who you are… - Posted by Ron
Posted by Ron on March 14, 2007 at 17:38:00:
John,
I rarely post on this wonderful site, but I read and learn every single day. I have followed your posts for the past 5 years. Every time I log onto this site I look at the postings, hoping one of your long responses are here. Through all of the real estate courses, books, tapes, and gurus, I have never learned from them the one thing we get from you: The Human Side of real estate investing. You tell us the stories of experience that have deterred me (and others I’m sure) of making mistakes. One that comes to mind is the 1980s-era computer you posted about a few years ago that made automated offers of 20% market value for all MLS listings. Before I read your posting on this topic I “thought” I came up with a similiar ingenious idea, and already designed the program but realized after reading your posting how silly it would have made me and my broker (and friend) look in the real estate community since most of those offers would have likely been rejected. Most of all, it humbled me that my “genious ideas” may have been thought of by someone else in another time period. In general, I LOVE hearing your stories of experiences in your career over the past few decades, especially when talking about real estate during the high interest rate days and the Savings & Loan / Resolution Trust Corp. days. I’m only 25 so even though I have read extensively about these periods, I am actually learning from you on what to do and what not to do if and when cycles like these return since I was not old enough to experience them the first time (I was only 9 or 10). I’m not sure how much appreciation you get on this site, John, but I just want to let you know that I APPRECIATE YOU. Please continue to post here as long as you possibly can, and keep the long posts coming, because I READ THEM. I have read every single long post you’ve written and have learned so much. I still haven’t finished reading everything from you in the archives because it’s so much but I’ll finish them all eventually. Anyway, thanks for being who you are!
Ron
Re: Still broke when they retire - Posted by vacationlover
Posted by vacationlover on March 13, 2007 at 21:49:18:
John, (and others that posted),
I can’t say how truly thankful, inspired, and blessed I feel to be able to read so many others’ like-minded thoughts here in this community.
I have had these conversations, too. I’ve been at it full time now for just over 3 years. I was a corporate slave with a j.o.b. for more than 20 years. Pedigree’d as long as my arm for my profession. Finally, chose to ditch the corpo-politics for what I hoped (and, more importantly, planned) would be a better life investing in real estate. Stopped studying technical manuals and started reading about REI.
My former colleagues, who I’ve never bragged to, feel sorry for me because they think I’m out here struggling amongst the self-employed. Why? Well, for one reason, I didn’t buy a new Hummer or Range Rover when my SUV of 12 years and just under 200K miles was finally petering out. Instead, I bought a 2 year old model (and paid cash, discounted for ca$h, of course).
I’m still in the same house I bought 9 years ago, which is now worth 4 times what I owe on it. Beaver Cleaver neighborhood. (Refinanced when the rate dropped to 6%). I like my neighbors. Solid middle Americans.
My tiny rental portfolio is simple. SFH and small 2-4 unit multi-family housing. Was at about 32% LTV. Probably a little more now, since the market’s dipped a little. About $3600/month cash flow, if me or my tenants don’t do anything stupid.
I’m up to a little over $2K a month in marketing now. Wish I could spend more. Need to find ways to process that many leads. (A good problem).
Oh yeah, started studying “technical manuals” again. Maybe 3-4 hours absorbing Ray’s brain dumps and other peripheral stuff in the last week or so.
Bottom Line, done more for myself, my future, and my family’s future (They don’t even know it yet) in the last 3 years doing REI than I did in the 20 before.
Other than my good friends in this business, this is the only place I would ever feel comfortable saying this.
The Best to All,
vacationlover
Re: Physicians VS Real Estate Investors - Posted by Brian_wa
Posted by Brian_wa on March 14, 2007 at 14:11:16:
I just turned 30 a month ago and haven’t had to work for anyone for the past 3 years. I now make over 7 times what I made when I was working for my previous employer, which was 50k a year back then.
It does take a lot to be a successful investor. But then everything that is worthwhile requires a lot of effort.
Brian