Property Management John T Reed's way - Posted by DR

Posted by HR on February 11, 2001 at 05:44:00:

said it better myself. You nailed my reasons (and sentiments about this ) exactly, Jim.


Property Management John T Reed’s way - Posted by DR

Posted by DR on February 10, 2001 at 13:12:31:

Yikes! I visited John T Reed’s site yesterday and he as you all know TORE CS to bits! What do y’all think of his comment that professional REIs NEVER hire outside Property Managers. What does “in house” property management mean? How can you manage multiple real estate holdings without hiring an outside Property Manager? I’m confused…

Re: Property Management John T Reed’s way - Posted by Shaun

Posted by Shaun on February 11, 2001 at 07:52:54:

We agree with the post that says " why are we going into all this diatriab about John T. Reed"? Its just a diversion from where we should keep our focus on answering R.E. questions. If you want to discuss him as a Guru, put it on Group II. Why would anyone loath him so? What he has to sell is more or less, a minor player in the R.E. Book or Seminar game. Take him for what he is to you, be it wrong or right. If you like him fine. If you don’t like him fine. Either way its not going to make a lot of difference. One thing I will say is I have not heard of him bilking a lot of investors out of a lot of money as we know several Gurus who have. The only conclusion I can come to is that, those who really intensely dislike him, loath him because of his perceived “better than thou attitude” and he may have trashed their favorite Guru? On the former, there are many so called Gurus with the same attitude. On the latter, he is the only one I know of that has a website that lists his opinion and others that have written him on about 100 Gurus by name, with about equal amounts of bad good and indifferent. He may be wrong or right on any one of them. It is just another source to give any investor some knowledge. The investor needs to determine if it is right or wrong or where or how to use it. The same type of information is available on many Gurus on Group II on this site. But wisely, the site authors, rarely express their opinion.

Re: Property Management John T Reed’s way - Posted by JPiper

Posted by JPiper on February 10, 2001 at 22:56:25:

This is an area that I agree with Reed about. I think it is highly likely that you will regret hiring outside property managers.

Much better in my opinion to manage the properties yourself…hiring “in house” people as needed accountable directly to you.

Either way, you should start off managing your own properties, otherwise you will never know when your “professional managers” are making “mistakes” or perhaps even taking you to the cleaners.


Re: Property Management John T Reed’s way - Posted by Rob FL

Posted by Rob FL on February 10, 2001 at 16:47:53:

Most of the big commercial property owners (like large apartment complexes and office buildings) have professional managers that handle the day-to-day affairs. Reed doesn’t have a clue. If you want to find out how money is made in real estate ask someone who makes money in that profession, not somebody who only writes books and newsletters about it. Reed is basically a self-employed journalist, not a real estate investor.

I loath him more than ever… - Posted by HR

Posted by HR on February 10, 2001 at 16:47:13:


Every three months, we have a John Reed debate. If you want some good discussion on the man, go to the archives here and pull his name. You will get plenty of material, good and bad, to make an informed decision for yourself.

Reed’s site has expanded since the last time I visited. He is offering far more materials, and at what a price! A $30.00 how to get started in re pamphlet that’s only 65 pages long?

If Reed were what he claimed – unbiased, objective (no axe to grind; no fight to start for its own sake), rational, competent (reviews all primary and secondary materials before performing a critical analysis) – then his commentary would have great merit. Unfortunately, when you read his materials, and I have a few of them, you find that he is incompetent (does not perform thorough research before jumping to unsupported positions, which means he has unsubstantiated opinions he preaches nonetheless as fact), irrational, and biased. Reed touts his Harvard education, and, as a Yale grad, I would indeed blame much of his poor intellectual abilities on that other, inferior institution. Nonetheless, if anyone else were to try to pass that kind of half-baked analysis off as professional, or ivy league, they would fail. And despite how Reed may try to defend himself or argue otherwise, his analyses do indeed fail.

Reed is more dangerous than any other guru out there. I mean that. Why? Because he is the anti-guru guru. Reed is indeed a re guru. It is his primary business. And unlike many of the “gurus” here – Kaiser, Bronchick, others – Reed doesn’t even practice re investment. One is learning to drive from a man who doesn’t even do it, and, when he did, he got into a wreck!

Reed hates the criticism of his work. He hides behind a moral tone and an appeal to “smart” readers who agree with “80%” of his views. That, to me, tells me that 80% of his adherents can not perform a genuine critical, analytical analysis based on fact and values to arrive at truth. As the Un-guru Guru, he is more dangerous than anyone else.

Perform an analysis for yourself. That is indeed the only satisfying method. For those who are not afraid of opinion, research, analysis, and personal responsibility, a newsgroup like this one is not threatening. In fact, it is enormously helpful.


Well, ya see … - Posted by Redline

Posted by Redline on February 10, 2001 at 15:55:45:

It’s easy to talk about how to manage rental property when you either have never OWNED rental property, or you haven’t in ages!

JTR is a clueless windbag. He should stick to the “prevent defense” lol.


Let me add - Posted by Tim Jensen

Posted by Tim Jensen on February 11, 2001 at 06:26:04:

Jim has a lot of good points here. I just want to add some more.

  1. No management company will screen your tenants or oversee work better than you. I think that if you do do things yourself, you will end up with better tenants and the quality of work done on your places will be higher. To a manager, your proerty is just a job. If they put in a bad tenant, it is not their place that gets torn up, and besides they will not have to pay for the repairs when the tenants leave, so they are more interested in just getting someone in. In other words the quality of tenants will not be as big of a proirity than it should be.

  2. Also doing it your self gives you some real world experience. You will be able to learn what to look for in a good tenant.

  3. Finally, you will be more apt to do some of your own work. Now some people do not do their own work, however why pay a furnace guy $50.00 to go lighte water heater or furnace when you can do it yourself. Bottom line, you can save a buck or two on those small repairs that can eat you alive. This also helps when you do go get major work done, you can use your knowledge learned in the smaller jobs to let the contractor know that you are an educated consumer. Hence, they may not be as likely to try and make you do more repairs than needed or replace something that just needs a minor repair.


Never bite the hand… - Posted by Jeff in MKE

Posted by Jeff in MKE on February 11, 2001 at 10:25:10:

Hi HR and all,
I’ve been there and done that.
I once ripped HR publicly on this board and really regreted it after.
I have nothing but total respect for HR and all the others that have put there blood,sweat,and tears into this business.
I personally will always be a fan of the HR’s and all the others that post here.
It may be just one of there ideas that gives you the opportunity to make millions.
Hey HR,
My wife and I will be at this years convention.
We would like to make a deal with you.
We heard you have alot of knowledge.
We have alot of beer.
Would you like to trade a little of yours for a little of ours?
Think about it, you have time. LOL
Jeff in MKE

May I comment on - Posted by Bud Branstetter

Posted by Bud Branstetter on February 10, 2001 at 20:56:46:

It is such a negative emotion. I could care less about the guy. To many positive things to talk about.

Not always true… - Posted by Houserookie

Posted by Houserookie on February 10, 2001 at 20:54:33:

Sometimes those $30 materials is all that is needed to
start in RE.

Everything else can supplement and improve what
u do.

Most people that buy expensive courses dont’ close
deals. Some don’t need courses but will close many.

Re: I loath him more than ever… - Posted by David Alexander

Posted by David Alexander on February 10, 2001 at 18:57:48:

Well Said…

I have a friend that says if everyone else (the masses) is doing it then it’s probably wrong.

David Alexander

Re: I loath him more than ever… - Posted by TD

Posted by TD on February 10, 2001 at 18:34:00:

Perhaps - but many more of us loath your silly e-mail address, Hal.

Hard to take a guy seriously despite the sincerity of his arguments with an address like this.

We Digress!! - Posted by DR

Posted by DR on February 11, 2001 at 09:59:57:

I seem to have sparked what has turned into a rather nasty exchange that has nothing to do with the original issue. Thank you to those, on both sides of the “outside” vs. “in-house” property management issue who gave concrete opinions on the subject one way or the other. My goal was not to discuss Reed but to use his comments on the subject to begin a dialogue about property management. I do have some concerns in that area and would like to learn from ALL who have experience in that area what works, what doesn’t and WHY. Thanks and Good Luck to All - DR

I Hear He’s Going To Coach in the XFL - Posted by phil fernandez

Posted by phil fernandez on February 10, 2001 at 17:00:29:

And I doubt Reed ever played football, but he’s a heck of a coach. If he did play, it’s obvious he wasn’t wearing a helmet.

Don’t believe the hype… - Posted by HR

Posted by HR on February 11, 2001 at 14:57:02:


One of the (many) great things about the convention is not only the information the speakers present, and the opportunity to buy good courses cheap, but, for me, the opportunity to network with other real estate investors. No matter what level you are on, you will find others who are at that same level and other people ahead of you who are willing to share tips on the journey ahead. The convention, for me, really is that great. It’s a great time to share tips and secrets with others not in your market, as well as speak about re 24/7 if you want. And, hey!, most of us want!

Much of what I have learned, I have learned 1) by reading everything available in print at Barnes and Noble and my local library; 2) my local reia group; 3) this newsgroup; 4) the convention; and 5) personal experience. The 5th is by far the most important, and the most expensive.

I am happy to share anything I know, and I’m sure there is much you know that will help me, too. Honestly, I’m a little uncomfortable with your post, because I’m far from the most knowledgable or experienced investor around. David and others have said kind things about me, because I have really hit the ground running the last 3 years and done well. I’m still learning, too, though. If anything, I try to share information on something I have some experience, not just an opinion. I try to avoid talking about something that I can’t vouch for personally. I hope I have not given that impression thru my posts that I am a more experienced, larger, or better investor than I am.

I have done very well. While I have a job fulltime, I also have a fulltime crew that renovates blighted houses. RE is a fulltime job for me, I just have a flexible job on the side too (primarily for cashflow and credit purposes). We did a bunch of renovations last year, and we will do 10 this year. (We are already on numbers 2 and 3; waiting on #4 to close. The first one this year, which we bought in January, is already done). I’ll also do a few wholesale flips, and I’m beginning to get into low-income, section 8 housing. Meanwhile, I’m also going to finish the renovation of my own 5200sf, 8 bedroom 5 bath uptown home and move my family in (that’s going on almost a year). If any of this can help you or anyone else, I am happy to share what I know.

And Jeff, I do this because it’s a joy to help others succeed and to talk with others about a subject I myself love: real estate. I’m a true addict, and I don’t want no cure. I also share here, and try to encourage others and give some real-world advice, because I deeply appreciate the true heros of this site: JPiper, Phil Fernandez, Bud B., John Behle, JP and Terry, Ed Garcia, Ray Alcorn, and the many others that thru the years have made this site the great place it is. Please don’t confuse me with them. I promise you, I ain’t in their league (but, I promise you, I will be some day). Don’t believe the hype.

In the meantime, I’m just a brother on the journey. If I can share something, I’m happy to.

Now, for the record, let’s get something straight:

  1. Phil Fernandez is the alcoholic, not me (lol). This is an old, creonline convention joke, and I think Phil is behind this secret plot to name me the big beer drinker. What are you trying to pull, Phil!? (smile). (Actually, Jeff, this came about years ago because none of us knew each other at the time, and we didn’t know the convention center, so we just kept saying, Hey: I’ll meet you at the bar. The funny thing is: I’m actually not a big drinker or beer drinker. But, want to go direct to my heart? Buy me a whiskey sour!)

  2. Finally, don’t sweat any previous comments. Honestly, I don’t remember half the time who said what. Plus, I’ll never forget one of the first times years ago that I posted here, and Rob FL (appropriately) blasted me back. Rob and I have emailed privately a bunch of times, and I consider him a re friend. Don’t sweat past posts; I don’t.

So, hey, I’m all ears for beer, sours, or otherwise. I look forward to meeting you.


Re: May I comment on - Posted by JD_TX

Posted by JD_TX on February 11, 2001 at 01:03:23:

Amen, Bud!
It seems like there have been several threads lately that have turned into long ideological diatribes. AND I have been a part of some of them. NO more! Let’s get back to CREI…

80/20 Rule Applies Everywhere - Posted by Houserookie

Posted by Houserookie on February 10, 2001 at 20:55:47:

Including RE.

Re: I loath him more than ever… - Posted by David Alexander

Posted by David Alexander on February 10, 2001 at 18:57:51:

I thought it a rather cool email address, and certainly memorable.

And if you dont take him seriously then it would be your loss… he does a lot of deals.

David Alexander

Re: I loath him more than ever… - Posted by TD

Posted by TD on February 10, 2001 at 19:20:41:

If someone sent me a BUSINESS e-mail with that return address (notwithstanding that it’s a Hotmail anonymous account), I’d be disinclined to consider them seriously - unless I’d already had a face-to-face meeting or a solid phone chat with them.

Regardless of how many deals Hal has struck over the years, that perception will still last with me - and, yes, it is my loss, indeed.