Real Estate Investors Cry SCAM,SCAM! - Posted by DeDe

Posted by Tim Fierro (Tacoma, WA) on July 08, 2002 at 20:30:45:

Dump that group if you don’t fit in. Look for another club if available in your area. Call the We Buy Houses signs and ads in the paper and find out if and where they network.

Don’t give up, just start a new direction.

Real Estate Investors Cry SCAM,SCAM! - Posted by DeDe

Posted by DeDe on July 08, 2002 at 20:04:23:

Right now at this moment I feel like throwing the towel in and give up “creative” real estate investing based on the “negative feedback” I got from real estate investors here in my area. I met with a group of investors at a “meeting get together” from an ad I seen in the local newspaper. The whole idea was to talk about real estate investing and share ideas. When I brought up “Sub2” and “Flipping” properties, the whole group looked at me as if I was crazy Or, on drugs! They told me that I’m watching too much Carlton Sheets informericals and that the program “is a scam”! They went on to mention that buying “subject-to” and “flipping” properties is illegal, and can get me in “BIG” trouble,… and real estate investor newbies (like myself) give other ethical investors a bad name in the area! This type of feedback was coming from real estate investors who have been in the business for years! I have already bought two real estate course “flipping properties and ABC Subject 2” and I even brought those along with me when I went to the meeting. They reviewed it, mocked me, and told me I had better get a REFUND because the courses are definitely a “scam operation” and do not work in St. Louis, MO.

Now what should I do? I’m a 35 year old female and creative real estate investing was my only hope of giving me and my family a better life financially.

Down and Out!

Re: Real Estate Investors Cry SCAM,SCAM! - Posted by Juan

Posted by Juan on July 10, 2002 at 11:54:30:


If you need a little inspiration, check out Dwan & Sharon’s stories. Their products are here on creonline and I think it tells their story if not check out their website - Both overcame great odds to become very succesful in this business and both have great reputations as investors in South FL. and as national speakers.


Maybe it’s a boy’s club - Posted by Chris (TX)

Posted by Chris (TX) on July 09, 2002 at 22:54:04:

…didn’t you say you were the only female there DeDe?

Well, maybe they just wanted to run you off because they would feel soooooo uncomfortable to have a woman actually “succeeding” in their line of work… and heaven forbid if you should “surpass them!”

No offense to the guys on this board… you all are great… but what I’m reading into this situation is that these guys had their own “testosterone driven” motives for scaring poor DeDe out of the business. You know… there are alot of men who have something to prove… maybe that’s what these meetings are about (if you get down to the core of it).

Or… maybe they are just uneducated about the techniques you have learned because they are stuck inside their own box (ie: their own method of investing that they’ve been doing for the last 20 years)… or maybe they are just narrowminded… or maybe they have been told those things are illegal by their own friends, attorneys, whatever.

Who knows… the point is… they are WRONG! That’s all you need to remember DeDe… they are simply wrong. The success stories and the deals that are discussed day in and day out on this board prove that.

I’ve made money “flipping”… and it’s perfectly legal! I know attorneys who flip houses… duh… it’s legal! Buying subject to my dog spots approval… is legal… buying subject to a loan is legal… they are just scared to try something new… these investors.

One more thing… there are hundreds of investors in STL… bet on it!.. now go and find the ones who have a clue… or find one a thousand miles away… doesn’t matter… just remember… this stuff works… period.

Hang in there… you’ll be fine :wink:

Just my .02

More like “NO COMPETITION”! - Posted by Tony-VA

Posted by Tony-VA on July 09, 2002 at 15:59:09:

If this group is the cutting edge in local investment you are light years ahead of them. No competitors because unless it is a cut and dry, 20% down deal, they will not be able to find the solution.

Solutions are the way Investors make money. Home buyers just buy homes. You have NO COmpetition as far as other Investors from what your post indicates.

Apply yourself and the information you have and you will lead by your example, not your course library. While they sit back saying “it can’t be done” you will be piling up houses and income streams without competition.

Look on the bright side and forgo the feeling of disappointment.


I haven’t read the responses to your post, but… - Posted by bill gatten

Posted by bill gatten on July 09, 2002 at 13:17:30:

…I would imagine they all say the same thing. Your “experienced” investor friends are not really very experienced, or they’d know that what they are saying is so full of baloney it squeaks.

I travel the entire country giving workshops and seminars and the first stop for me prior to setting up a seminar is usually the area?s largest investor club. While there I take 2-3 hours and prove to people that you can in-fact acquire without cash, without credit, without risk and without undue due-on-sale compromise. I show them that it is all legal, ethical, moral, honest and safe in every way. I even show them pictures of the millions of dollars worth of properties that I have acquired without cash, credit or risk.

Know what?

After these meetings at least 70% of the people there don’t believe a word I said.

Know what more? I could not care less. For every skeptic there is one less competitor my students have to worry about in that area.

The key: There are two groups of creative real estate investors – those who are creative, and those who are not. There are “vanilla investors” and their are “Neapolitan Ripple Acquirers.” I am of the latter group and will match ROI’s (Return on Investment) all day long with the former bunch (Making a hundred thousand on a property without a cent invested creates a pretty decent ROI).

To make a life for yourself in any endeavor must MUST NEVER listen to the naysyers. All good ideas go through 3 phases: 1. Haughty ridicule, 2. Violent opposition, and 3. Acceptance as having been self-evident all along.

Hang in there with those folks. Pick up their cast offs. Abraham Lincoln said: ?When the rest are running south, that might be a good time to travel north and see what they left behind.?


Re: Real Estate Investors Cry SCAM,SCAM! - Posted by mrwi

Posted by mrwi on July 09, 2002 at 12:49:00:

Hey DeDe,
Dont give up! I have just moved recently from the St. Louis area back to Wisconsin, but I just wanted to let you know that before I left St. Louis, I did a flip that netted my partner and I $11,500!!!. So yes you can do flips in St Louis and we flipped it to another investor that does rehabs.We also did another retail flip that netted $16,000!!! I know from experience that there are alot of “landlord investors” in St. Louis and I have attended a couple of their meetings, yet there are several creative investors there as well. I know from talking to a certain title company as well that there were some bad investor deals going on and that the FBI was investigating this title company who was inadvertantly used by the crooked investors. That may help to explain some of the “fear factor” you experienced at that meeting! Good luck and happy investing! Just hang in there!

DeDe…Wake up Call… - Posted by Houserookie

Posted by Houserookie on July 09, 2002 at 11:41:25:

Instead of feeling sorry for yourself or angered by these people, realize that they can only teach you what they know. Their opinions are based on what they know. Apparently, they dont know enough.

Think of it this way. Would you go to a criminal defense attorney for tax advice? The investors in your area speak from the position of ignorance.
Scams don’t run on television for decades. Don’t you think the FEDS would be onto Sheets by now?

It is also possible that investors in your area don’t want you to do better than them. Some people don’t like competition.

But don’t look to far for narrow-mindedness. There are people on this very board that are so stuck in their own ways, from years ago, that they can’t see things beyond what their peers see.

There are people that tell me the web is full scams and nobody makes money. Yet, the same people use this board, buy courses, chat, search the engines, and spend money.

People like to mention dot com dot bombs to justify why their personal failure isn’t all that bad.

People do make money online. Heck I’m only 28, and I sold a patent to a large travel company for $10 million just two and half years ago. Seven years ago, I made a killing in prepaid fone cards. And even then, people called fone cards a scam. Today, the same people say it’s too late…it’s saturated…it’s this…it’s that…it costs too much money. Blah blah blah …

People are always rushing to point out the billions that are lost by big companies, but they don’t count the everyday people like the Vaughns that make a living online…making possibly 6-7 figures.

They point out the billions lost by big companies, but they ignore the little guys making $100K to $1 million a year.

RE is no different. We have people here that think they know it all about real estate, and we have people here that have achieved greater success than the so called experts.

Don’t let ignorance defeat you. You are danged if you do well…you are danged if you don’t.

This board has great people and great information. But don’t think that your education ends here. Some of our freinds here would like you to think that Real estate is where wealth is at. WELL THEY’RE ALL WRONG. There’s money all over the place. Open your eyes and see what others don’t or can’t. That’s where the money’s at. …

I dont know about you, but if your colleaques in St. Louis are truly that ignorant, I’d be smiling all the way to the bank. I would play them like the suckers that they really are.

Good luck to you…take care…


They have a point. - Posted by GL(ON)

Posted by GL(ON) on July 09, 2002 at 10:29:22:

When you buy “Sub2” you are really in the driver’s seat without responsibility. An inexperienced person can do a lot of damage, and so can a scam artist. There was a link to a story here about a week ago about a woman who bought and sold hundreds of properties using creative techniques, collected money from her buyers and never paid the mortgage payments on the sellers’ mortgages. This created a legal mess that will take an army of lawyers years to straighten out.

One of the biggest proponents of “sub2” on this board has said he would buy sub2 but would never dream of selling that way LOL.

As far as “flipping” goes, there was a series of scandals last year about banks being ripped off for millions by crooks using phony appraisals to “flip” for inflated prices, mortgaging properties for twice what they were worth then running out with the money leaving the banks holding the bag.

When an experienced investor hears the words “flipping” and “subject to” this is the kind of thing that comes to mind. The kind of thing that gives real estate investors a bad name and makes it even harder to do deals for the honest investor.

Now if you are totally honest, and totally committed to fulfilling your obligations no matter what the cost, and never get into a deal unless you KNOW you can carry it out no matter what, perhaps this doesn’t apply to you.

But if a newbie with no money and no experience started talking glibly about making a fortune overnight using these methods, I would feel about the same as I would at the sight of a 5 year old waving a loaded revolver around.

Now you know why they reacted as they did. Do you still think creative real estate investing is easy, fun and risk free? Well it isn’t. You have to understand the bad along with the good and be ready to carry the weight.

I will say something else. You will be getting negativity from all angles as long as you are in this business. Your friends and relatives, every government agency there is, your tenants, your customers, all will have their knives out.

You can still do this business but you must realise what you are letting yourself in for.

Wow, I am moved! - Posted by Joe

Posted by Joe on July 09, 2002 at 09:41:51:

I have been on this board for about two months and read almost all posts. I have been learning the creative RE investing but have not even got my first deal yet. Occasionally, I sort of doubt whether the techniques work or not, or even the whole concept, but everytime I have that doubt, I told myself most people who wrote all these posts are successful people in the field. This is real! After seeing all the responses to DeDe’s post, I feel this is a great family/community of CRE investors who are willing to help people anytime, any way. Thanks guys, and I hope I will have first deal soon.


Hand them a tissue and move on . . . - Posted by William Bronchick

Posted by William Bronchick on July 09, 2002 at 09:16:08:

Here’s a story that makes the point:

When I first moved to Denver in 1993, I met a small group of experienced investors who had been in the business for 20 years. While they didn’t give me the attitude about the financing techniques they did something worse: discouraged me about up and coming neighborhoods.

As an outsider coming in from N.Y.C., I couldn’t see a bad neighborhood (nothing compares to the things I’ve seen!). Whenever I suggested I was buying a house in a particular neighborhood, I was told “don’t EVERY buy there - we won’t partner with you or lend you money.” I just couldn’t understand . . . these looked like fine places that were clearly “up & coming.” I figured if I didn’t need a gun in the daytime, how bad could it be?

Bottom line: these areas are now worth 10x more than they were in '93. I saw it, I envisioned it, I believed it, but everyone told me “don’t do it.” I stopped hanging out with these guys and formed my own group, and the rest is history.

The moral of the story is “go with your gut”. Be educated, know the facts, get professional advice, but in the end, your gut instinct is usually right (sort of like putting, for those of you who are golfers; the more you analyze the break on the green, the more likely you are to read it wrong!)


PS - I did buy houses in SOME of the areas and did real well. I turned down several vacant, boarded houses near downtown Denver (for $5k) which are now worth about $250,000 each! Live and learn . . .

Re: Real Estate Investors Cry SCAM,SCAM! - Posted by ned - mo/il

Posted by ned - mo/il on July 09, 2002 at 08:44:14:

First, don’t let those other people deter you from investing in real estate. If you have the interest and desire to learn I would forget about them. Find a different group or even form one.
I am a newbie near St. Louis as well. What meeting did you go to (e-mail me direct if you don’t want to say)?? I don’t want to waste my time there.
Thanks and good luck.

Re: Real Estate Investors Cry SCAM,SCAM! - Posted by john

Posted by john on July 09, 2002 at 01:16:05:

I love people telling me what I can’t do. Makes me mad enough to do something and say I told you so!! Theres a saying I like. “A loser is really a winner who stopped at the 50 yard line” It’s a fact, people don’t want you to outshine them. It makes them look bad. Whats that other saying? "If your not the lead dog, The views the same? Don’t stop on the 50 yard line. Make the touchdown even if it’s not football !!!

Re: Real Estate Investors Cry SCAM,SCAM! - Posted by JohnB_NJ

Posted by JohnB_NJ on July 09, 2002 at 24:29:40:


I am sorry you had to deal such people with no vision and no creaativity. There are many many investors in the country that invest “the old fashion way”. Buy with 20% down (or more), get a mortgage and collect rent. They may find a good deal but most of the time they pay near retail for rental property. Hey, that works for them. It doesn’t work for me.
I listen to Terry Vaugh, when he says a winner will not be denied. I take that to heart. I can not succeed to my satifaction buying RE the ‘old fashion way’.
These courses do work if you apply the knowledge and do what it takes to push forward. It is tough out there. It can be nerve wracking at times but it is so worth the effort. Success comes, maybe it will take some time, but it comes. You just cannot quit or listen to negative people.
Also, you can’t teach anything new to someone that feels their way is the best way. Why bother. Help those that want your help. Forget the dream stealers.

DeDe, read those books/courses. Reread those books/courses. Follow the plan laid out for you. Work the plan (nothing comes without work) and keep pushing forward for that first deal.
After the first deal, you will have the drive to continue for that excitement you felt when you have that CHECK IN YOUR HAND!
The Best Of Real Estate Success to You!

This is a great business…


Dear DeDe - Posted by Paul_MA

Posted by Paul_MA on July 08, 2002 at 23:51:46:

I think you just stumbled onto the niche in your area! If they think like that, the feild is wide open for you.

Good Luck!

MO - Show Me - Hell No Show Them. - Posted by $Cash$

Posted by $Cash$ on July 08, 2002 at 23:04:37:


Do you see the amount of advice and well wishers you have drawn from this community?

You certainly would not want to dissapoint them or yourself by giving up, would you?

Do not pass Go, do not collect $200, put your heart, mind, body and soul into it and go out there and do a deal.

If you need help just ask, I’m one of the many who is willing to help you.


Re: Real Estate Investors Cry SCAM,SCAM! - Posted by jkf

Posted by jkf on July 08, 2002 at 22:56:34:

De De, sister girl do not give up. If you quit now, you will look back and regret it. You have to give it all you got before you even begin to think negative. Let me tell you my story De De. I was in the U.S. Army 10 years with a wife and five children. My wife was a stay at home mom and my military income was all we had to live off. I purchased my first course (Carlton Sheets) in November 2000. I purchased my first investment property with a conventional loan in July 13, 2001. I realized their were other ways to invest in real estate and began to educate myself (Ron Legrande and others). Before I did my first lease option transaction in Dec 2001 I decided that I was finished in the military. You cant imagine the negative comments I got from everyone including my mother. They made comments such as “You can barely make as it is with 5 children” “You are half way to retirement” “You only have done three deals” “That stuff dosent work because if it did everybody would be doing it” “You are going to be unemployed” “You are stupid, crazy, dumb, and foolish”. You see De De I recieved no love from anyone except my wife. According to society the odds were against me. Think about it De De, why would someone leave a job that can support a wife and five children and provided health benefits? Because I knew one day a oppurtunity was going to present itself and I had to be ready. That oppurtunity was creative real estate investing. I went to a lease option boot camp in Jan 2002. I met people in our business who were successful all over the country. I stayed in contact with all the like minded people. I only surrounded myself with like minded people. They did not have to just be interested in real estate, but they had to think outside of the box. I got out the military April 12 2002. It has been almost three months since I got out of the military and I have lease optioned or subject to six houses, averaging two houses per month. That gives me a total of eleven houses including th five I had prior to getting out and I am really just getting started. I am making more now than I was in the military. At first I was going to throw all that stuff that was said to me by the naysayers back in their face, but I am just going to be patient and wait until all my debts are paid and a new mini van is in the driveway paid for, and that is a lot sooner than later. De De, leave them knuckle heads alone and go make some money. As I use to say in the military “Drive on sister, Drive on”.

Re: Real Estate Investors Cry SCAM,SCAM! - Posted by Bill M

Posted by Bill M on July 08, 2002 at 22:29:24:

So now you know how narrow minded people think! Some old dogs never learn new tricks… Rejoice…

Probably the single thing you should do differently at the “next group”, is to listen, ask questions, and not bring in a course or two… Trust me, ego’s are involved and it’s very easy to beat up on info when the author isn’t around to defend it, and you’re a greeny.

Look around you. How many millions of dollars in real estate is within 10 miles of your residence? Do you think there might be a few people out there looking for someone to solve their problem?

Focus on finding “people problems”… far more than property problems. Unless you want to be a rehabber, there is far more opportunities for creative/ lo/no down deals if you find MOTIVATED owners. That is the place to find your deals, not at some “investor” meeting!

While your new ‘investor’ friends all fight over run down fixers, maybe you should be looking for motivated sellers and come up with options both of you can live with… and it rarely must mean doing a rehab.

Control of property is far more important than ownership. and less risky. Learn to control without ownership and all you get is profit… because you never obligate yourself unless you already have a sale lined up…

Anyway, think about control without owning and you won’t go broke. Talk to people who want to own. Keep a database and work hard to control properties where you can control the deal. Bring your partners in as “owners or co-owners”. Your contribution is your ability to find and control the situation long enough to place your 'take-out".

Good luck…

Bill in OR.

Re: Real Estate Investors Cry SCAM,SCAM! - Posted by BIGDADDY(MD)

Posted by BIGDADDY(MD) on July 08, 2002 at 22:21:44:

Have you ever heard of the terms “Ignorance breeds Ingnorance” and “Feeble Minds”. Don’t pay any attention to those losers. Now if it were me I would have to go back 2 more times.

One, I would ask them to please explain exactly what law or laws it is that I would be breaking. I always ask if they can quote the case law, but please remember your usually dealing with people that THINK they are knowledgable in real estate, this can even apply to lawyer’s. I’ve shot several of them down in conversations over this exact issue. Maybe I should start calling myself the RED BARRON OF REAL ESTATE. LOL. You see most of these IDIOT’s confuse, (Yes, even some Lawyer’s), Fraud with Flipping and many other types of creative deals. So you being the newbie to the conversation can probably make that distinction for them. Now, they will usally do a lot of talking but they typically say very little with any real meaning to it. Now, I would end the conversation with them by saying that if any of you need a mentor my services are not free and that I will no longer be able to give them free advice nor do I have the time to set around and educate them on how to be a REAL, REAL ESTATE INVESTOR. Now as I said this is just how I would and have handled these situations before. Some would say that in these situations that I just like to P%@S PEOPLE OFF, but I reckon IT"S BETTER TO BE P#SSED OFF THEN P#SSED ON.LOL (Hope I didn’t offend anyone)

The Sencond time that I would go back is after I had done several deals just to let them know that yes, it can be done, it can be done legally, and yes, a greenhorn (newbie) did it when they said it couldn’t be done.

Just my opinions and thoughts.

So, stick in there and don’t sweat the small (minded) stuff.


Re: Real Estate Investors Cry SCAM,SCAM! - Posted by Jim FL

Posted by Jim FL on July 08, 2002 at 22:18:33:

Well, the last thing you stated in your post caught me eye.
It was when you said that REI was your “only hope”.
Frankly, that is B.S. too…(Stick with me here, this is NOT a slam.)
There are PLENTY of ways to make a living, and ways to create and build wealth, how ever you define that for yourself.
However, since you claim to feel that REI is your “only hope”, beleive it!
Get that thought into your head, and use it to DRIVE YOU!!
Knowing that you HAVE to make something happen will help you in the long run to achieve your goals.
Ask me how I know this?

After reading your entire post and the responses here, I’d like to add a few thoughts of my own.
First, what makes you think just because someone has invested in real estate for 20 years that they are someone YOU want to be like?, or that they are successful by your definition?
The old adage of “associate with those who as successful as you want to be” comes to mind.
Anyway, speaking of investors with 20 years experience and whether or not they are good advisors/mentors for you…
Let me give you an example:
I have a relative who has been investing for about 20 years.
He is a “Buy and holder”.
He buys decent houses in decent areas, at LOW prices…well below market value.
He buys about 2-3 houses per year, and only got to that level recently.
I was of course directed by the rest of our family to talk to him and get his advice in order to be "Successful."
Now I do think that he is successful, by his own definition, but he is not at a place I want to be 20 years from now.
He told me during one conversation that when he hit 20 rental units he would retire from his day job, and get something part time, along with his rental income.
Good for him, I think he is at 18 houses now.
However, for me, I am using REI as my vehicle to generate funds, and income streams so that I can pursue other things. (The old making money as you sleep routine REALLY appeals to me.)
20 houses would not even come close to giving me what I need to get to my end goal.

Did he say some things that were helpful to me?
Did I offer him my take?
Nope, I went to meet with him, under the impression that he would be advising me.
I walked away with a few tips on managing tenants, making repairs cost effectively etc. Things I could imcorporate into my business plan.
However, his buying houses for all cash, and using his own credit did not appeal to me in the least.
I don’t mind leverage, but only when my name and credit are not on the line.

One of the responses you got here told you to not offer your take at meetings like this, and that was smart.
Just attend meetings with people like this and listen to what they have to say.
There very well may be nothing for you to gain from them to help you conduct your overall business, but I’m sure there would be a tip or two exchanged that could be applied to your business model.

Also, you talked about being close to giving up on REI all together.
Think this over real hard, and if you are still unsure, then YES, QUIT!
You NEED to be fully committed to any business venture to get it off the ground and to the end goal you have set.
Half hearted attempts will remain just that.
Hence the reason that 95% of the people who buy courses and books NEVER buy one property using the techniques included in them.

Now, take a step back from the situation, in other words, lose the emotional aspect with regard to your feelings about this meeting and its attendees.
A THICK skin is something you will NEED to have in order to survive in this business, it is not for the faint of heart.
Ask yourself a few questions about these people who treated you with disrespect.
Things like:

  1. Are they who I want to be in the future? (if the answer is yes, then listen to them.)
  2. Do they do the things I want to do in the future, and are they good at them?
  3. Do I KNOW that this creative real estate investing works? (Trust me, it does, even in YOUR area.)
  4. When these people told you that subject to the existing financing type deals, and Wholesaling was illegal, what was this based on? (I’m assuming ignorance, the MOST rampant disease in our nations Real Estate industry, all sides.)

See bottom line is, you presented something to these people in with a very small glimpse of how it actually works, and probably in an excited manner.
What are these “Seasoned investors” going to think?
Of course the same thing most people think…“uh oh, here is another recent course or seminar graduate seeking a million dollars within 30 days.”

I say, ignore these people, avoid them, and move on.

You seem to think, based on what you posted here that you cannot, or will not move forward unless you are surrounded with positive people, and some mentoring.
While these are good things to have, and it does make the trip a lot easier to handle, they are NOT needed.
Take a long hard look at those naysayers, and see if what they have to offer for advice will help you toward your goal?
Are they where you want to be?
Do they have a CLUE about this business?
If not, ignore them!

We get posts here all the time from people saying, “I just bought such and such course, have read this website for x number of months, and WAS about ready to dive in…then suddenly my family, friends, RE professionals and others all told me I was nuts, this stuff does not work here. What should I do?”

Same things apply there as well.
Do the naysayers have anything to offer to help you get to your goals?
Most don’t, just criticism of your plan.

Don’t you think that the people who invented some of the GREAT things we use daily for our convenience heard in the beginning that they were crazy?
Sure they did, and thank goodness they did not listen.
This is YOUR DREAM, and the ONLY person who can make it happen is you.

This is NOT a “Get rich quick” scheme, it is a business, which takes persistence, HARD WORK and education to get going and maintain.
Why on earth would you want a teacher who has not been there and done that?

Hopefully after reading all the responses here you will be able to make a final decision for yourself, armed with a little more encouragement and info.

The choice is yours.

Good luck,
Jim FL