Tenant Nightmare -- new landlord - Posted by John

Real Estate Investing Section 8
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Posted by Lee in Louisiana on February 25, 2008 at 20:25:06:

Sailor, AKA Tye,

Re:
http://www.creonline.com/wwwboard/messages/63816.html

Rental agreements Vs Leases

You said
“BTW, many landlords, including me, refuse to grant leases. We strictly operate on rental agreements because, in practice, leases solely protect tenants instead of landlord. A lease is an easy thing for a tenant to break, but it can tie up a landlord in knots.”

Not to be smart-elic (sp? never tried to spell this word before)

What are your defections of â??Rental agreementsâ?? and â??Leasesâ???

I have owned rental housing, this September, will be Thirty Yearsâ?¦
and because you and I are alike, in a wayâ?¦
we want to help people and we donâ??t want conflict. We do what we should do to help our fellow man.

Please provide your definition of Rental agreements Vs Leases

Thanks
Lee in Louisiana

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Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by John

Posted by John on February 22, 2008 at 12:07:44:

Hi everyone, I bought a multi unit building about 4 years ago and never had any problems, I always settled disputes outside of court and with the tenants themselves… but this one problem tenant is about to give me ulcers. I’m worrying to death about it because I just can’t work it out.

The building I purchased is a “lower end” building but i am not a slum lord by any means. I have a full time job so I make repairs when they are needed. I’ve actually done a lot of work to the building, there are a few tenants that still live there since I took over.

Back in about November, a lady approached me that had 4 children and needed a place to stay. I keep my rents low so there is always a demand. She said she had trouble finding a place, etc. She was in “rehabilitation” complete with a Child Protection Services caseworker and everything. She had some past trouble but was trying to get her life back together. She talked it up, said she had a job, etc… I am a sucker for a sob story. She didn’t have enough money for the damage deposit plus the 1st months rent.

She came at the right time, because I had an apartment that was basically abandonded and needed help getting it cleaned up. There was an elderly lady who lived there for some length of time and had a stroke… so her life was in chaos. Her family basically said do what I had to do, they weren’t paying rent and didn’t care what happened to the rest of her belongings.

I made an arrangement with the lady that she could move into the apartment if she agreed to clean it up, etc. I would let her have 2 months for free. I felt sorry for her and the kids and thought it would help the both of us. Because I didn’t have the time to go in there and do what needed to be done. In addition I collected the money from her deposit that the state paid.

Everything was fine until January, it was time for her to pay. Her toilet was broken, and I admit it took me longer than it should have to fix it, but it still worked and was not a hazard. I had orginally gone down there the day she complained and thought I fixed it,but she called back the next day complaining. I ended up replacing the toilet and cutting the rent by $100. She pays $350/month. I thought it was more than fair.

February arrives and she informs she she will have February’s rent on February 21st… Because she gets paid twice a month, and she will just give me the total then. I didn’t have a problem with that. Again, I didn’t want to make it real hard on her with the kids and all and she was keeping down a job, I did confirm that from the beginning.

On the 21st she leaves a very nasty message on my answering machine (and I have been kind to this lady) that her case worker is paying her rent this month and that she should turn me into the health department, etc for all the problems with the apartment and that she has taken pictures, etc. She just had a really bad attitude. So of course I called her to see what was going on… she basically said what she told me in the message, but was even more hostile.

I tried to be calm and tell her if she was that unhappy she should take the money that her case worker was to give me and find her another place to live… (she had mentioned she had a place in mind earlier). She kept saying, take me to court, take me to court, over and over. Well a combination of her attitude and the feeling I was being taken for a ride, we started yelling at each other. This is not my nature, I never talk down or yell at people, but this lady was really pushing me. The last thing she said was she was having the health department down there that evening. She went on to say she was going to have the building condemned, etc. (it was already 6PM)

Come to find out she has been in a lot of trouble in the past and doesn’t exactly live a squeeky clean life. I knew she had some problems, but I was under the impression they were boyfriend/husband abuse, etc. and just basic misunderstandings.

Moving on, I got a call from her caseworker today and I told her what happened… nothing was mentioned of the health department or such… She basically agreed that she would help find her another place and that was it.

Now my paranoia has set in and a million different scenerios are going through my head. Is she gonna have someone do me harm? Can she cause a lot of trouble for me? What are my options and how can I prevent this in the future? The rest of the tenants can affirm that I am very fair and fix things when they are supposed to be fixed etc. This is the only time I have run into something like this after 4 years… which I know is not a long time… but I’ve not even had to go to court to throw someone out. The apartment across from her is on Section 8 as well as 2 others. I would be very grateful for any advice! Its extremely frustrating to think after trying to help someone that it backfires in your face…

John.

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Re: Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by Rich-CA

Posted by Rich-CA on February 23, 2008 at 09:25:29:

I had one of these. She had conned a Mormon to bring the church in to help her. They were paying half her rent. She had 3 kids. Wanted a 2 years lease and we provided it because of her “domestic abuse” story and, at the time, finding a tenant in Phoenix took a LONG time. I figured that after 15 years as a landlord in CA I was ready. Bad move. The quality of tenants in AZ is way below the quality we had in the SF Bay area (and my RE agent - an experience landlord himself as well as having lived in the area I was used to for 15 years - had told me that the tenants were a lot lower quality).

Anyway, one thing I learned. The lease does not mean anything to a tenant. This one moved out in the middle of the day and we only found out by accident. The lease IS useful in determining what they owe when you turn the account over to Collections.

(1) Set your rent as high as possible. Lower rents require bring people who are much harder on the properties.
(2) No deposit. No keys. No payment plans for the deposit. Not having money is a certain sign you have a problem person.
(3) Charity is separate from business. Be honest, have integrity, but don’t give away the store unless you don’t want to have on in the end.
(4) Set your procedures based on local law and ALWAYS follow them. If the rent is due Monday, Tuesday start preparing the 3 day notice (CA), 5 day notice (AZ) or whatever the late rent notice is for your area. If you have a grace period, you can mail it at the end of the grace period. I have no grace period any more.
(5) Make sure your condition records are thorough. Before move in, after move out.
(6) Build the file for collections. Include all late fees, penalties, missed rent, and damages. If your lease does not allow 50% to be added to what is owed when turned over to collections, add that now and use it in the future.

Many say leases are not helpful. They do help if you have down time to prepare and re-rent the unit in terms of adding the extra months to their account for both collections and credit reporting purposes.

As to what to do now:

(1) Give her the3 or 5 day notice to quit or pay rent.
(2) Find an attorney to handle the eviction. In Phoenix I use an attorney who charges a flat rate to evict and does not represent tenants, only landlords.
(3) Send her an accounting of what she owes on the Notice. Include rent, unpaid deposit, late fees, etc.
(4) If she pays partial, do not accept it. Just proceed with the eviction as though nothing happened.

BTW: you mentioned toilet problems. Was it clogged? That would be tenant abuse since toilets do not clog themselves and the tenant has complete control over what SHE put there. It should be her expense. Make sure she gets charged for any repairs she caused. When she moves out normal wear and tear is limited to small amounts of touch up paint, worn spots on the carpet if the carpet was older, and so on.

You mentioned a case worker. Is this Section 8 or something else? If Section 8, make sure the damage file goes to them so she loses her packet. Section 8 can be easier because bad tenants lose their voucher.

EVICT HER. Give her a 30 day notice to terminate tenancy since she’s month to month. You WANT her out. I now assume that all sob stories are a scam now. Do this long enough and you will get suspicious of everything a tenant (or applicant for that matter) tells you.

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Re: Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by del-ohio

Posted by del-ohio on February 22, 2008 at 14:59:13:

It is so contradictory to what normal people would conclude with logic. You would typically expect that if you help someone they will be appreciative and want to help you in return, instead, in exchange for your kindness to them they threaten you and take advantage of you.

As someone else mentioned, usually the only thing they have going for themselves is their bark, I had a great help mentality when we first did apartments, had to learn fast … or go broke “helping” people. I came to realize it helps no one, it does not make them more responsible, it only reineforces to them that they can get away with that kind of abuse. and they all seem to have friends with similar attitudes which will find out the next time you have a vacancy and will want to rent from you because you are such a wonderful landlord.

It is was an interesting observation, when we started evicting a few “derelicts” the word spread and the different tenants that started showing up.

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Re: Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by Mike D - Illinois

Posted by Mike D - Illinois on February 22, 2008 at 14:53:17:

John - You have a couple of choices - #1 Put up with her garbage. #2 give her a 5 day notice to quit or pay rent, and thus begin the eviction process. What you are getting is an expensive education. Professional rent dodgers (and she sounds like one) know all of the ropes and which strings to pull to get you to fear them and the legal process. Get yourself a lawyer conversant with landlord/tenant law and find out how much it will cost to evict this tenant. Do it NOW. Then, go to mrlandlord.com and do some reading on that site about landlording. With regards to your kindness to her, you must continue to remind yourself that this is a business. She is a tenant, and you are not adopting her. Believe me, as a 14 year landlord, I have learned this lesson by experience. Get through the eviction process and move on. Good luck.

Mike

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Re: Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by Ken

Posted by Ken on February 22, 2008 at 14:34:05:

Get rid of her.Make the apartment decent then charge as much rent as you can get.I have found that the more rent you charge the better the quality of tenant that comes to look at it.If you have a $600 apartment but advertise it for $300 then only people who can afford $300 will show up to see it.The longer you put up with her crap the more likely the other tenants are to start causing trouble and stop paying rent

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Re: Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by IB (NJ) on February 22, 2008 at 13:38:06:

Make this the last time you “help someone” as a landlord. Do it as a human being but keep your business of providing quality low-cost housing out of it. Trust me I learned the hard way. Your WORST tenants will be the ones who the state had to come in and take their kids away. I have one now I’ve been trying to get rid of for 4 months. They know the system and will use it to their benefit.

The only good thing is that they are more talk than bite. They rarely have anyone come after you unless you do something physical to them and even then, they only have to connections to other drug addicts (drug dealers don’t even respect them).

Find whatever loophole you can to get rid of her. That includes moving into her apartment. Here in NJ it’s hard to get rid of a tenant unless they stop paying rent or you wish to move into the apartment.

Ib

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Re: Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by John

Posted by John on February 24, 2008 at 14:53:06:

Thanks! I haven’t run into this until now, should consider myself lucky but I will be much more diligent in the future. Is it necessary to have a judgement in order to turn it over to collections or can you just do it? Also, what kind of collection agency would take on something like that?

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Re: Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by John

Posted by John on February 22, 2008 at 15:15:36:

Yes it is, need to learn or go bankrupt, like someone said, its a business and people (as I am learning) will walk all over you.

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Re: Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by John

Posted by John on February 22, 2008 at 15:19:32:

Thanks, I don’t know if this matters or not, but I actually had her sign a month to month lease, so I know its not the same everywhere, but generally speaking, do I have to “renew” her lease for no good reason, do I even need to have a reason?

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Re: Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by Rich-CA

Posted by Rich-CA on February 24, 2008 at 17:28:46:

You do not need a judgment to turn it over to collections. The collections agency will file the lawsuit if it looks like that can shake loose payment (for example, in AZ they can garnish wages).

For a referral, I called my landlord-tenant attorney and got a reference.

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Re: Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by IB (NJ)

Posted by IB (NJ) on February 22, 2008 at 20:50:37:

What state are you in and what do your state laws say? Here in NJ, a month-to-month lease doesn’t hold much water.

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Re: Tenant Nightmare – new landlord - Posted by Sailor

Posted by Sailor on February 22, 2008 at 17:51:02:

If you are a landlord you have an obligation to know & understand your state laws. The best procedure to get this tenant out w/depend on the applicable laws & your willingness to apply yourself to the process.

I like to help folks, too, but it’s important to understand that the best thing you can do for any tenant is to adhere to your agreement. This means you need to perform timely appropriate repairs & she needs to pay rent on time.

Unfortunately, you started teaching her right away that she doesn’t have to pay you. That hurts her, you & all her future landlords. Just like a virus, a bad tenant can spread bad habits to other tenants. Innoculate by devising good rules & practices & stick to them. Remember, if you allow folks to take advantage of you it w/prevent you from prospering sufficiently to provide more decent affordable housing for other families.

It pains me to say, but I have found it is especially critical to be vigilant when dealing w/victims of domestic violence. It seems to me from what I have experienced, that the rage so long suppressed often gets vented against others (especially landlords). I work w/some agencies in cases like this, but am extra careful in vetting prospective tenants. Most often I find extensive deceit. Even if a prospect passes screening, if there is any remaining doubt I get a limited rent guarantee from the agency or a famiy member. (Note that if the tenant is working w/an agency, they w/probably provide the full 1st month’s rent + deposit.) It is also possible to do a shortter term rental agreement (e.g., week-to-week) so that if it turns sour you have faster legal recourse.

BTW, many landlords, including me, refuse to grant leases. We strictly operate on rental agreements because, in practice, leases solely protect tenants instead of landlord. A lease is an easy thing for a tenant to break, but it can tie up a landlord in knots.

Good luck, & remember, the most expensive education is ignorance!

Tye