The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by Bill Gatten

Posted by Brad Crouch on January 19, 2001 at 20:34:50:

JohnBoy,

The proceeds from the sale of the property happens this way:

1 - The property is sold by the trustee at FMV, or purchased and refinanced by co-beneficiary at FMV.

2 - All loans are retired (out of the sale or refi).

3 - Costs of disposition are paid (e.g., escrow, RE commissions, etc.)

4 - The Settlor beneficiary then is refunded its beneficiary contribution (beginning equity and non-recurring start up costs).

5 - Next, the co-beneficiaries are refunded their beneficiary contributions (non-recurring start up costs, equity contributions, escrow fees, any part of commissions paid at inception, etc.).

6 - ALL remaining [net] proceeds are distributed among beneficiaries in proportion to their respective percentage of interest held.

Brad

The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by Bill Gatten

Posted by Bill Gatten on January 18, 2001 at 21:16:26:

For interest’s sake:

Two months ago, a seller answered one of my (I buy houses?) ads and they had a house in San Bernardino, Cal. (2 hours from me) that they had not been able to sell because ??it didn’t show well.? It had been on the market for six months for $255K, and they were anxious to move out of state (there next move would have been to reduce the price to $240). They showed me a 5 month-old appraisal for $275K. (comps indicated it might be worth 255-260K at most). Payments are $2,300 PITI. The house needed about $3,000 in work (paint and clean up mainly). I squeaked air through the side of my mouth a lot and told them that it would take several thousand dollars of work to bring the property to maximal value, and wasted no time in flashing them my comps (?turned out they?d bought the property several months ago from their folks who had a VERY friendly appraiser in their pocket). They agreed tht by savings th repairs and the RE commission?they?d be in good shape to take my offer.

I said that if everything checked out I would fully take over their loan (at $220K) and that I’d give them $4,000 when I did and that I?d relieve them of any further responsibilities: further price reductions, RE commissions, Escrow Costs, more monthly payments, etc.

I next took a Purchase Option to buy (via the PACTrust) at a Mutually Agreed Value of $225K in 45 days. I gave them $100.00 for the option and recorded the Memorandum of PO with the county that day. I also, that day, arranged to have ?Andrea,? a neighbor across the street, hold the keys for me in order for her to show the property for me after the sellers were gone (they had been good friends of the sellers and were happy to do it?I?ll send her flowers).

Next, I put an ad in the local newspaper that said: NO DOWN, NO CREDIT APP, NO QUAL. As little as 3-5 Pmts and Clos. Costs moves you in. $255K home, pool, jacc, fncd, RV pkg, 1/2 ac., 5+3 only $2,140 p. mo. + tx and ins.

Then when the calls began coming in, I said the following (to each one who called):

“Yes I have this great property over there on Muscupiabe (pardon the Hopi Indian there) by the college, and if you can afford the…um?about $20,000…it’ll take to get in, and the…um…about $2,500 per month–after you add tax and insurance and so on…I’ll just GIVE it to you. The only thing we want out of it is to have you either sell it, or finance it in your own name, in a few years?maybe five. And?at that time…if there’s BEEN any appreciation we?ll just split it with you. (long pause) However, if you’d prefer, you can come in with $45,000.00 instead of the $20,000, and we won’t need to split anything?and I?ll still carry the loan, and all my equity for free, for you (They all preferred the split?and I?d never have found anyone with that much money anyway).”

On the 5th or 6th call, out of perhaps 50 or 60 received, Mrs. X called and said she?d like to see the house, so I sent her by to see Andrea. She called the next day and said she liked it, but she didn?t have the $20K yet, and she still needed to talk to her husband.

4-5 days went by and I?d screened out maybe a half dozen other folks to go by and meet Andrea and see the house (4 followed through). Then Mrs. X called and said she was ready to make an offer. I said great (Note that I?d never seen the house or the seller (my wife handled getting the PO) and it is two hours away.

Mrs. X indicated that she and her husband could give me $5,000 today, $9,000 next Monday and the remainder ($6,000 on 2/1 when the Escrow closes). I made no promises, but said we could meet.

We met at the property. I went through some diagrams explaining, how a trust works, how a land trust works, how a PACTrust works, and how a Two-tiered PACTrust works. She was tickled plumb goofy, so I took her $5,000 (in cash), a personal information sheet, and an offer from her (to buy 50% of the beneficiary interest in the land trust that holds the property). She signed the documents on behalf of her and her husband (they?ll both sign on all final docs). We discussed the repair work (maybe $3,000 worth, and I said if she and her husband would do it all themselves over the next five years, I?d let them in the property for $3,000 less: at a M.A.V. of $252K instead of $255 (don?t forget that half of the $3,000 reduction goes into my pocket anyway, because we?re sharing 50:50 in all future profits?so the discount was in reality only $1,500?half of what it would cost me to do the work).

Tomorrow, I open Escrow with American Title Escrow, and begin drawing up all the PACTrust docs (Land Trust (between seller and the trustee); Assignment (to me and my resident co-beneficiary); Bene. Agreement (between all three beneficiaries); Occupancy Agreement (between resident bene. and the trustee and collection company); and a Power of Attorney (from the seller to me?for Power of Direction over the Trustee). Other documents include letters to the lender, to the insurance company, to Escrow; cover letters, trustee directions, etc.

Now when the Escrow closes, I receive another $16,000 on top of the four I picked up today; plus I have a $200 p mo. Positive cash flow; half of the future appreciation and half of the principal reduction in the loan. Further, I have no management, maintenance, vacancies, negatives, etc… and the water heater blows?they fix it: they don?t even wake me up to tell me about it.

Quiz: How much did I pay for this property? How much are my monthly net payment? How much money have I made so far? How much will I have made (in existing equity, plus cash received) in another two weeks? And what if the property manages an average annual appreciation of 3% per year for the next five years?then how much did I make with a zero investment, no mortgage loan, credit application or credit risk? What if there is NEVER any appreciation? Did I do all right anyway? And Oh yeah?where did the $4,000 to the seller come from (not me, boy)?

The cost of doing a PACTrust?? The same as a wrap, a contract for deed, a lease option, a lease purchase or an Equity share?unless you hire me to do it all for you (which you DO NOT HAVE TO DO! Bud Branstetter doesn?t!).

Bill Gatten

Re: The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by Fran(CA)

Posted by Fran(CA) on January 22, 2001 at 11:07:52:

Bill,

I am very new to all of this and noticed that no one answered your questions. I would like to see if I am doing the math correctly, so I am answering your quiz.

Quiz:
How much did I pay for this property?
$100 (for Purchase Option)

How much are my monthly net payment?
$200(approximately)

How much money have I made so far?
$9,900 (14K down from buyer less $100 for Purchase Option and 4K to owner)

How much will I have made (in existing equity, plus cash received) in another two weeks?
30K in equity plus $15,900

And what if the property manages an average annual appreciation of 3% per year for the next five years?then how much did I make with a zero investment, no mortgage loan, credit application or credit risk?
Appreciation: $13,538
Monthly Income: $200 * 60 Months = $12,000
Up front monies: $15,900
Total made on deal: $41,438

What if there is NEVER any appreciation? Did I do all right anyway?
Made $27,900 so I would say you did alright.

And Oh yeah?where did the $4,000 to the seller come from (not me, boy)?
That came from the buyer’s down payment money.

Please let me know if I am doing this correctly. And I think that even with no appreciation you did pretty darn good.

Fran

Re: The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by Fran(CA)

Posted by Fran(CA) on January 22, 2001 at 11:07:45:

Bill,

I am very new to all of this and noticed that no one answered your questions. I would like to see if I am doing the math correctly, so I am answering your quiz.

Quiz:
How much did I pay for this property?
$100 (for Purchase Option)

How much are my monthly net payment?
$200(approximately)

How much money have I made so far?
$9,900 (14K down from buyer less $100 for Purchase Option and 4K to owner)

How much will I have made (in existing equity, plus cash received) in another two weeks?
30K in equity plus $15,900

And what if the property manages an average annual appreciation of 3% per year for the next five years?then how much did I make with a zero investment, no mortgage loan, credit application or credit risk?
Appreciation: $13,538
Monthly Income: $200 * 60 Months = $12,000
Up front monies: $15,900
Total made on deal: $41,438

What if there is NEVER any appreciation? Did I do all right anyway?
Made $27,900 so I would say you did alright.

And Oh yeah?where did the $4,000 to the seller come from (not me, boy)?
That came from the buyer’s down payment money.

Please let me know if I am doing this correctly. And I think that even with no appreciation you did pretty darn good.

Fran

Re: The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by Jim IL

Posted by Jim IL on January 18, 2001 at 22:29:08:

Bill,
Thank you.
For those of us without your course, or much time to read about your technique, it is nice to see a view of how a deal using it actually works.
The profit sounds good to me on this deal.
I have honestly thought about buying your course or attending a workshop, but seem to not have the time to do so.
or
Maybe I am just comfortable enough with the techniques I use now that “work for me” that I have not made the move yet.

I can tell you however, the idea sounds somewhat complicated. I know with some study I could learn the technique and perhaps be able to use it and understand it, my only worry is explaining the whole idea to a seller.
I know when we do a L/O, a L/C or a straight cash purchase it is rather easy to explain and get the seller to sign.
And a regular “Subject to” deal using the land trust beneficial interest assignment seems to already confuse most sellers or scare them away.
I’ve heard often from sellers, “Well, this sounds really complicated to me, and may be some kind of scam, but we are going to let the house go anyway, so we’ll sign with you”.
I know as we sign up subject to deals lately, just about every seller has some comment about “How much paperwork” there is, or how it is all different from when the bought or sold before.
So, I’m sure the more paperwork we present to the sellers, and the more legalese we use, they may be more confused.
And we all know what a confused sellers mind will tell them to do.
What am I getting at here Bill?
Here it is.
Can you perhaps explain in simple terms to me, in as few words as possible, how we can explain all this to a seller quickly , easily, and so they understand it fully the first time we meet with them?

It took me a couple of years to be able to present a subject to deal to sellers and be able to buy them this way often.
So perhaps you can shed some light on it for us (me)?
And frankly, part of my yearly plan, or goals, is to make as much money as possible in the nicer seasons weather (I am in chicago), and take some time this next winter studying up on some new techniques.
So, I will be getting your course, but not for a few months at least.

I’d like to give it the attention it deserves without all the distractions of buying and selling homes.
Not that I’m complaining or anything.

Take care Bill,
Jim IL

Re: The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by Bill Gatten

Posted by Bill Gatten on January 22, 2001 at 12:26:29:

Hi Fran,

The questions posed were more in the order of a rhetorical statement, but yes…you are correct and made my point very nicely.

Welcome aboard.

Bill Gatten

Just that easy… - Posted by Carmen_FL

Posted by Carmen_FL on January 19, 2001 at 17:03:56:

I went to a PacTrust workshop in December, and since then have one PacTrust sewn up with the seller; one option I need to sew up after I check on some messy tenant issues; and another which I am getting the paperwork to tomorrow. I have an ad out on the signed one, which has generated “beacoup” calls in the past 5 days - and am meeting with a buyer tomorrow (if he gets the cash I need). It’s a small property ($72K FMV, which I’m getting for loan balance, $64K), the numbers are not nearly what Bill’s are, but heck, like he says - whose $$ is it anyway, and whose pocket is the profit going into? The other two are better properties - $130K FMV (getting it for $123K) and up and are only one or two months delinquent.

This is almost TOO easy - like falling off a turnip truck. My hubby, bless him, makes friends with every caller, and has NO problem talking them into the PacTrust, or into signing the documents. We send out postcards and put out ads to generate the seller calls.

We’re a little sidetracked on a rehab we just bought, but for 2 “real” weeks of work, 3 properties is not bad. And, since we were cleaning out that rehab today, it sure looks more appealing … (this is a 2000 sq ft. home owned by a 90-year-old blind woman with no heirs and obviously few friends. Suffice it to say that there were mosquitoes breeding in the toilets and the kitchen sink, and fish in the green swimming pool. Don’t ask about the refrigerator)

Thanks, Bill (and Marty!) for opening up a whole new way to real estate. You’ll be hearing from me again soon.

Selling it to the seller (and why) - Posted by Bill Gatten

Posted by Bill Gatten on January 19, 2001 at 12:15:34:

Jim,

First of all…if you’re happy with what you’re doing and see no downside or just don’t care…then don’t stop. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

When I “sell” this concept to a seller…I do it for MY benefit, not his: although it sounds to him like it’s all about protecting HIS interests (That happens, of course, but its not my primary aim).

Here?s my entire sales pitch to a seller (and it don’t get no more complicated):

“If you’re willing to stay on the current financing for a while, I’ll just take over all of your payments and expenses, and pay off your loan in a few years, after I’ve had a chance to make some profit.”

Yeah but I have non-assumable loan.

“That’s no problem, we’ll just hold the property in a trust–in your name, of course-- until I’m ready to buy it. In the meantime, I?ll jut lease from the trust.”

So this is kind’a like a Lease Option? Or…So this is kind?a like a Contract for Deed? Or…So this is kind?a like a Wrap? (Equity Share, Lease Purchase, Rent to Own, etc.)

“Yes, but by using the trust, there’s no taxable sale for you, and I can get some tax write-off for myself. And you never have to worry about anything happening to title due to any personal or legal problems either of us could have to endure later.”

Why is that?

“It’s because when you vest the property with your trustee, that party becomes the legal owner of the property and can’t be sued for anything you or I might do.”

But, what if you fail to payor damage the property?

“In such an event you?d merely have me evicted as a common tenant, and sue me for damages…and you?d do it all with MY money?the money I’ve placed in your Contingency Fund.”

Oh. Well alrighty then…

Jim, understand that the PACTrust is a protective shield for ANY creative financing scheme out there…it’s not necessarily an alternative to some other objective. It?s an alternative to being protected and not being protected. It does the same things a lease option; lease purchase, wrap, contract or equity share would do…no more. It does it more safely and is easier to sell (due to all the protections it provides).

If you can answer ?yes? to all the following questions or they don?t matter at all to you, then don’t consider changing anything you?re doing:

  1. Can I pass the full tax write for mortgage interest and property tax to my tenant (in exchange for higher rents)?

  2. Could either my tenant or my seller (or me) get sued during the course of my contract, and embroil the property or the option on it in their lawsuit or threat of one in the process?

  3. Can the ex-spouse of my seller or my tenant tie my option or property up in a lis pendens?

  4. Am I violating the due on sale clause re. 12USC1701 j-3) with my lender?

  5. Can my tenant, if defaulting, conceivably try to claim “equity (an equitable title interest)” in order to forestall eviction and force a lengthy and costly foreclosure?

  6. Do I ever have to worry about my optionor or seller disappearing some day, or refusing to sign appropriate documents when the time comes?

  7. Could my optionor or vendor ever give another unrecorded option or contract to someone else, or sell the property out from under me, or refinance it (or use it to secure a bail bond)?without my knowledge?

  8. Could my seller or optionor ever win in a disagreement with me, which could affect my ownership interest in the property.

  9. Will there be a problem insuring the property from a hazard insurance or title insurance standpoint at the inception or at the termination of our agreement?

  10. Can I openly discuss collection or document defugalties with the lender without tipping them off to something they wouldn’t like?

  11. Can the seller of an investment property still exercise his rights to a 1031 exchange 3 years after he executes an option or contract with me?

  12. Is there a way I can quadruple or quintuple my net rental income and still not be charging my tenant too much?

  13. Am I clearly free from the possibility of having to refund monies at termination, if things don’t go well?

  14. Am I 100% free from management, maintenance, vacancy potential, and negative cash flow?

  15. Can I counter, in a positive manner, virtually any objection a seller or buyer might have about the legitimacy and safety of the system I’m currently using?

  16. Will the system I’m currently using allow me to simply (in a simple manner) shift tax write-off, ownership, use/occupancy, control and direction, existing equity and profit potential to all of the parties in any relative proportions I might choose? (i.e., 10% of any of these elements to this guy; 22.5% to that guy; 37.4% to that guy; etc.)?

  17. Can I deal with foreclosure restorations (leaving the debtor in the property for a fee or percentage of ownership) without worry about civil code regulations?

  18. Can I do equity share (joint ownership or shared appreciation) type transactions without putting more than one person on the same title?

  19. Does the system I?m using provide thorough asset protection and armor plate my property against jut about anything that could ever arise?

  20. Is there third party intermediary between me and the other parties to keep everyone honest?

  21. Does any party to my contract ever have to worry about the lender receiving its payments on time and/or all parties receiving notices of default on time.

  22. Can I sleep comfortably at night when I think about #1 through #19 above?

Jim, if you answered ?yes? to most of these, then don’t consider EVER dealing with the PACTrust™: it won’t help you a bit.

Bill Gatten

P.S. the sky is not falling, and if you continue to do L/O’s, Contracts and Wraps you will still go to Heaven and there’s an excellent chance nothing will ever go wrong (I just like wearing a belt WITH my suspenders).

Re: The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by Terry (Houston)

Posted by Terry (Houston) on January 18, 2001 at 23:08:38:

I also have the question of:
In the ad you state No Money Down.

Then ask for $20k down. What do you you say to the people on that one?

Thanks
Terry

Re: The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by Fran

Posted by Fran on January 23, 2001 at 02:22:41:

Bill,

Thank you for letting me know that I don’t have a “fuzzy” math problem. Thank you for all your help I am glad to be part of a unique group of people.

Fran

Re: Selling it to the seller (and why) - Posted by Jim IL

Posted by Jim IL on January 19, 2001 at 14:56:07:

Bill,
Thank you for the quick and complete response.
This is exactly what I was looking for.
As I said, I do plan on looking further into the PacTrust when I get time.
For now, I will continue to buy as I do, and when we get a slow period, they do happen on occassion, I will be getting your material.
Your willingness to talk about this so freely and openly makes the entire package that much more appealing.

Thank you again,
Jim IL

Dealer status? - Posted by TRandle

Posted by TRandle on January 19, 2001 at 14:44:09:

Bill,
Depending on which side of the argument you choose, using L/O’s as an exit strategy could be considered either a dealer or non-dealer activity. In other words, “intent” was obviously to sell since that’s the way the property was marketed initially. Or “intent” was not to sell because so few T/Bers actually exercise.

Choosing the non-dealer status would allow someone to participate in 1031’s as well as all the other benefits of not being a dealer.

Where does the PT fall within the dealer/non-dealer issue? Thanks…

Re: Selling it to the seller (and why) - Posted by JohnBoy

Posted by JohnBoy on January 19, 2001 at 12:41:50:

  1. Am I 100% free from management, maintenance, vacancy potential, and negative cash flow?

How does this guarantee 100% that you will never incur any of these costs?

OK, the tenant stops paying and TRASHES the house. You evict with their money that is held as the security deposits. What happens if that money doesn’t cover all expenses due to how much they may have trashed the place? You have say, $5k of their money being held. They cause $10k in damages. How long to evict? One to three months? Then down time to repair and remarket the house for a new tenant/buyer. What if the house takes 3 - 4 months to find another buyer?

Basically, what happens if the money of theirs ends up not being enough to cover all the costs before securing another buyer? Do you still not incur negative cash flow during that time? How? Does the original seller get stuck with making the payments again until you find another buyer?

Hey, this one has been making me wonder, so how do you know it would always be 100% no negative cash flow or out of pocket expense for repairs?

Re: The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by Bill Gatten

Posted by Bill Gatten on January 19, 2001 at 20:57:20:

Terry, question answered well by JB

However, do note that the ad could say No Bank Qual., as little at $20K moves you in; or as little and 5% down moves you in w/o credit app; or as little as % and Clos Costs moves you in. I personally find the 3 pmts and closing costs idea is the most functional for me. It’s an unstated number that I can raise or lower depending up the applicants needs and or restrictions (mo’ money covers up a lot of bad credit)

When they ask what constitutes closing costs, I tell them; Escrow fees, recording, notary, trust set up and acceptance, insurance and property tax pro-rations and change-over, IRS filings, title insurance or search; first payment on contract, contingency fund, documentation and paralegal services…and a teeeensy amount of cash to me for their buy-in.

Bill

Re: The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by JohnBoy

Posted by JohnBoy on January 18, 2001 at 23:20:58:

The ad said:

NO DOWN, NO CREDIT APP, NO QUAL. As little as 3-5 Pmts and Clos. Costs moves you in.

The $20k = the 3-5 payments PLUS closing costs.

I assume the 3-5 payments equal first months payment plus security deposits and then the closing costs added to that. There is no actual “down payment” being made.

Re: The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by Bill Gatten

Posted by Bill Gatten on January 23, 2001 at 12:12:53:

Fran,

“Fuzzy Math” is just a deformity of the medulla oblongata, which manefests only the the cranial cavities of some Democrats…you’re good to go.

If you’re not a Republican already …you will be when you get really, really wealthy in this business.

Bill

Re: Dealer status? - Posted by Bill Gatten

Posted by Bill Gatten on January 19, 2001 at 15:41:49:

This may be a better question for Bill Bronchik. However, my non-attorney answer answer (without first having checked with our legal folks) would be: 1) the entire transaction is silent and unrecorded (except for the sellers deed into a living trust for estate planning purposes); the express intent is never to sell, as the resident beneficiary is only a lease tenant and has to pay Fair Market Value like anyone IF he ever decides to buy (but less what the trust will owe him at the time). The occupancy agreement is by a straight (triple net) lease, and not an option or contract to buy. There is no predetermined buyout, no interest consideration to a seller, no option, no mandatory purchase, etc. Therefore dealership issues don?t surface.

Bill

Re: Selling it to the seller (and why) - Posted by Bud Branstetter

Posted by Bud Branstetter on January 19, 2001 at 18:32:43:

Your comment about causing excessive damage is a “FEAR” concern. As Bill says if you did things right you had a renters policy. My favorite State Farm,TDP3, has a 1% deductable and covers vandalism. So to reach 10K it would have to be a million dollar house. I haven’t done one that size,yet.

When someone is putting more money into the property then they are less likely to trash it. I find that they will put more money down and pay more because they feel more like a purchase with those tax deductions, etc.

Here’s how kum - Posted by Bill Gatten

Posted by Bill Gatten on January 19, 2001 at 13:43:34:

John M?Boy,

The ?100%? is dependent upon having done it right up front and along the way…taking enough Contingency Fund and acting quickly to cure an defects or defaults and keeping an eye on the property. The Agreement provides that the property may be inspected up to 6 times per year; or anytime at all with a court order or suspicion of illegal activity after non-response to notification.

When someone defaults in a PACTrust, they get a certified letter asking them if they’d like to – 1) replace themselves with someone else (with my review and approval, and at their expense): or would they prefer 2) an IRS lien for recapture of all tax write-off taken to date (usually thousands of dollars); a law suit for all the remaining payments in the lease agreement; along with the forfeiture of all their money in the Contingency Fund; loss of their home and a very quick eviction process, and getting dumped out on the street with their belongings.

Though they may not know how to replace themselves (or have the wherewithal to do it), they become very docile and cooperative, assisting me fully by taking care of the property, showing it for, cleaning up when they move, etc… My line is usually, ?Well…I can handle that all for you if you’re out on time, take care of the property and help me with showing it, etc.? ?Never had a problem.

Losing a co-bene. is not a bad thing for me…I get to charge someone else another chunk of up-front cash and probably raise the price and monthly payments too. Moreover, if I act in a timely fashion, I can keep any cash remaining in the Contingency Fund too if I chose to (though I might give at least a portion of it to a cooperative evictee for their moving expenses).

Bill

Re: The anatomy of a PACTrust transaction - Posted by Terry (Houston)

Posted by Terry (Houston) on January 18, 2001 at 23:41:47:

Missed that.

Thanks