Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by Ben (FL)

Posted by Jim FL on March 22, 2002 at 24:59:46:

RC,
funny you should say that, I read the post above, enjoyed it, but after hearing about the m & m’s for the dog, was thinking the same exact thing throughout reading.
Hopefully he’ll check.
I’m a “Dad” to two kids, as well as several animals, dogs included, and NEVER feed chocolate to the ones with four legs.

Have a nice day,
Jim FL

Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by Ben (FL)

Posted by Ben (FL) on March 21, 2002 at 13:20:57:

First, I’ve been following and contributing and reading for a couple of years (although not much lately), and so I know you all are here for business. However, my wife and I are in a struggle and we are looking about for opinions from anyone willing to express them, so - I although this is absolutely not real estate related, I have brought my query here, looking for insight from people who i know at lease share some of the same characteristics I do - characteristics that brought us all here together in this forum. I hope you don’t mind.

For a variety of reasonss, my wife and I are forced to try Invitro Fertilization (IVF) if we want to have kids, and for even more reasons (my wife’s current age and health…down there), we have to dedcide within the next week whether to do it. It costs $10,000 just for the first try, if it doesn’t work, another $10,000 per try after that, and the odds are not what you’d want to bet on.

Now, we had been cruising along, just assuming that we’d have kids all along like everybody else is supposed to. Now, though, because money is VERY tight (I’ve 've got 4 houses that haven’t sold, and I quit my job to go full time in January) we are forced to evaluate the possibility of never having kids.

Some people with kids look enviously at those without and think “Oh, how nice that must be. To be that free, etc.” and many without kids look at those with and see only the best of having them.

I’m looking for some deep, honest insight. I have the politically and culturally correct stuff coming out my ears. It’s easy to imagine what’s not so great about having kids, so what IS really so great about having them?

And it’s easy to imagine what may be great about not having them. What’s the real flip side of that?

To those of you with and those who have chosen to live without, what is REALLY deep in your hearts and heads, late at night before you fall asleep?

Any information, personal experinces or insights, etc. would be VERY gratefully received.

Sincerest thanks,

Ben (FL)

Re: Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by eric-fl

Posted by eric-fl on March 22, 2002 at 16:25:08:

First off, this is, as you say, off topic. From time to time, though, legitamite “off topic” topics come up. This happens on every Internet board I frequent, not just Real Estate ones. May I humbly suggest to the moderators a solution I have seen other, non RE sites implement? A separate “water cooler” board. Many sites have just such a board for general off-topic chit-chat, just for that purpose. It provides an outlet for threads like this, and keeps the main boards clean. Just a suggestion.

Now on to your question. I’ll probably be different than most respondents below (so what else is new?) I have three kids, ages 3, 1.5, and infant. My situation is rather unique, in that, we were trying NOT to have kids, and wound up having three anyway. (We have taken “drastic” steps to ensure we do not have a fourth!) Yes, we were being careful, and in fact, we were being careful in a different way each time my wife got pregnant, but it kept happening anyway! We have a unique perspective in that, we had three kids, not just from not trying, but actually trying to prevent it! And, we have known many friends and associates who have actively wanted and tried for kids, and had a hard time with it. It’s ironic, to say the least.

Understand, my wife had always wanted kids for sure, and I was on the fence about it. We weren’t trying to prevent it forever, just until we were older. To be perfectly honest, I actually wish I could live two lives - one with kids, and one without, and then tell you which I liked better. But since that’s not possible…

I can honestly say, from my perspective, both situations have great benefits. NOT having kids meant we could do what we wanted, when we wanted. I miss staying up all night with girls I was dating (and later with my wife) to then go out to IHOP for breakfast at 4:00 in the morning, have a fattening breakfast that was totally bad for me, and then high-tail it over to the beach to walk on the shore, just me and her, and watch the sunrise. Nope, sure can’t do that anymore.

But I also really like tucking my kids into bed at night. Each child has a special routine, and they are so used to it that if mommy or daddy isn’t there to put the stuffed animals in just the right place, or say the same silly things, they get upset. I like the way my younger boy comes in with his “mow” (that’s milk) in the morning, and says “hi daddy” with a big smile on his face. There’s a million little moments like that with kids that add up to a cumulative whole that make them a special, irreplaceable part of your life. About the best description of having children I’ve read is that it’s like having your heart outside of your body.

Having said all that, in your situation, my simple advice to you would be this - make this decision with your heart. You discuss costs for treatments, odds, etc. Forget about all that. The whole point to why we spend our evenings and weekends stapling flyers to telephone polls, answering phone calls, reading books, and on and on, is so that we can have the kinds of lives where we don’t have to make choices like “money or kids”. Those four houses you have won’t be a problem forever - one way or another, they will be disposed of. At the end of your life, you won’t even remember you had four houses vacant in March of 2002. Please, look past the immediate issues of the moment, and make this decision in light of the overall scope of your values, and not on your immediate situation. Your situation can change, and that’s what this website is all about. Don’t put that in front of you as a way to escape admitting a hard truth to yourself, whatever that may be. If you do want kids, then you do, if you don’t, then you don’t. Above all else, what I and most conscienscous parents will tell you is, if you don’t REALLY want kids, please, don’t have them! There are too many kids in the world who’s lives are messed up because their parents had them because they “should”. Not everyone should. Only you can know the truth for your situation, but that truth IS WHAT IT IS, either way, and that’s what you must act on, not any external factors.

Re: Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by Stacy (AZ)

Posted by Stacy (AZ) on March 22, 2002 at 14:40:36:

Hi, Ben. I don’t have any advice for you about your decision, other than to say I’m the father of three, and wouldn’t have it any other way. But, I’ve got a friend who’s a successful dentist, and who went through years of fertility treatments with his wife. I mentioned his occupation because he can certainly afford the high costs associated with this path.

Every month or so I’d hear of the latest things they were doing, including him having to inject his wife with drugs every morning, etc. After many thousands of dollars and many failed attempts, they decided they’d call it quits after one last try. It was really taking a toll on them. I think it was mainly due to hoping and unltimately having those hopes dashed, over and over.

Well, their last attempt worked. And BOY did it work. They are now proud parents of triplets. Three at once. The kids will be turning two, shortly.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

Re: Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by Daniel

Posted by Daniel on March 21, 2002 at 20:41:42:

For what its worth my wife is 40 and we were lucky enough that god gave us 1 special little girl after 2 miscaries but i want more kids.My thaught is there are so many children out there in the world with no parents or food or clothes and I can love them just like I love my own and give them a good loving life with us.Rather than give some doctor and clinics and whoever else a ton of money.I could send that other special child to college with that money.just my opinion I cheriss every minute with my daughter.

Daniel

Re: kids, to have or not; …deep topic… - Posted by Tim Fierro (Tacoma, WA)

Posted by Tim Fierro (Tacoma, WA) on March 21, 2002 at 20:05:09:

Ben,

When I met my wife (she is my 2nd) about 16 years ago, we had a long heart to heart about how she couldn’t have kids. She was 19 and I was 22. I was still married and had a 1 year old little girl. I didn’t think it would matter. Well those first few years were kind of tough since my ex had custody of my daughter and I wanted more children.

I finally married her a few years later, and we looked at adoption. Ok, this required money even though we would have been great parents. We could not afford all the hoops to adopt and we would have adopted any age of kid. We never understood if there are so many kids needing parents, and we are willing and able; why should we pay monies to agencies to make this happen?

As the years progressed, we went to the fertility type doctors; but because of early childhood problems, my wife was not going to have kids. We had that same dilemma of whether or not to pay for procedures that may not have the desired result. If there would have been a guarantee, we would have done it. But with medical history, and chance of success small; we could not afford to throw our lives in a tailspin should it not work. Not just the money, but the emotional tide that would have been started from it not working.

Then we thought of being foster parents. We always had a big house and thought this was the way to go. But again as time went on, the timing just never came up for us to do whatever was necessary to become foster parents.

Then I suppose somewhere in the last few years, we had another heart to heart and decided that we love the way we live our lives. In our early to mid 30’s and we go where we want, when we want. We decided that kids were not going to be an option in our future.

We spend a lot of attention on our 2 dogs and they are spoiled rotten. The kind of spoiled that when I go out to any store, I bring my little pomeranian a bag of M&M’s home. You know the kind of people we are? The kind that will not eat all of our dinner at restaurants because we want to bring them something home. You know what kind of people we are? We go out to a pub/bar/tavern; we order 2 extra hamburger patties to go in aluminum foil so that we have something special for them when we get home.

So while Gina and I have no kids together, we have 2 little dogs that we love dearly. Kids just never worked into our lives. If the money for the procedures is going to break the bank and cause you undue pressure in your home life, it may not be the thing for you. You have to live your life, and kids are a nice addition for the family.

BTW, we through a party this past weekend for my daughter; she will be 18 years old on Sunday. We would have preferred to be there when she fell down and hurt her knee, been there when she went out on her first date, etc… but we are grateful that we at least get to see her once in a while.

I can’t tell you whether or not to do it, and nobody else can either; it is just too personal. You and your wife have to sit down and do your own heart to heart and determine what it would be like and how it will affect your family now and into the future.

What do I think about before I go to sleep? That is a deep question. I look at my wife who is sound asleep and know every inch of her being and what she wants in life. I look at Gizmo! laying on my side of the bed and wonder how I can move him to his pillow above Gina’s head. I look at Daisey snuggled up next to Gina and figure out how I can squeeze into this king size bed; but it looks like there is no room for me. As I crawl into bed and start to fall asleep, I wonder if Holly (my daughter) will choose Princeton, or will Berkely hurry up and write back to see if she gets accepted there too. She really wants Berkely. And as my eyes finally drift off into never never land, I see my life as a happy man, a good man, an honest man, and yes; a family man.

Re: Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by Kim (FL)

Posted by Kim (FL) on March 21, 2002 at 17:34:57:

Oh - you know that a mother is going to get sappy right? So be prepared!!!

Having children will be the biggest accomplishment of my existence ever. My husband will tell you the same thing. We have two children (3 and 1) and we’re trying to get pregnant with our 3rd now. I can’t imagine existing without children. A very religious person once told me that she adores her children because “they’re the only thing she’ll be able to take with her” – to heaven that is. I thought that was an amazing statement! It kind of points out what’s important – not your net worth or your golf game. Not to get to “deep” here – but what are we really here for? I feel like I’m here to enjoy life and make a difference but more importantly to begin and nurture other lives to make this world a better place.

On a more “practical” note – I don’t think there is a loving parent in the world that is truly envious of people without kids. They may be envious of their free time and their extra disposable income. But having a baby is AMAZING and no good parent in the world would have it any other way. One can’t even describe how amazing it is to have a child and watch that child learn to walk, talk, love, smile. It’s incredible.

It sounds to me like you would like kids but you’re fearful of the life altering decision and the health issues that come with that. I think you should forget about money/time etc. and evaluate what you and your wife want out of life and what she can do healthwise. I have a feeling you will decide that you have a desire to be a parent. Don’t miss that opportunity. My aunt and uncle were caught up in “life” (vacations, careers, buying a bigger house) and they never had children. Now, everytime one of her nieces or nephews get married or have kids or some other major life achievement she cries to my mom about her regrets to never have kids. It’s sad. Now, I do think there are people out there that do not want children – and those people shouldn’t have them. But, if you have a desire to have kids ~ don’t miss the opportunity. It will be harder with IVF but it will happen!

I thought about listing what’s great about having kids, since you asked, but decided that the list would be way too long. So, in a very brief nutshell — they’re SO much fun, they’re work but it’s worthwhile work so it’s worth it, they give you a reason to succeed, they make holidays SO much better, when you get old you have a family to love and care for you, you get to re-live your childhood through their eyes, and so forth and so on.

It’s a commitment but it’s a commitment that gives back every single day. You’ll love it!

Good Luck!
Kim (FL)

Re: Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by Jim FL

Posted by Jim FL on March 21, 2002 at 16:53:31:

Ben,
This is not as off topic as you might think.
Take a look thru the archives here for reasons most of us invest.
Sure, you will see many saying, “For the money”, or "to be rich or wealthy."
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
I also want to be wealthy, rich, and while we are at it, good looking…well, maybe not the last one.
I want to be a good person who does good things, someone who can be thought of as a role model for others.
Where am I going with this?
Well, I have two kids right now.
I am not their biological father, but I am their “Dad”.
(There biological father is deceased, and they live here with me and their lovely mother.)
I am able to attend most of the the events my kids participate in, and will only miss one if it means collecting a large check, which will pay for the things they need and want.
My kids are spoiled.
They do have more things than I did growing up, material wise, but they also have a Mom and Dad who are at home more than they are away working.

When I go to sleep at night, I know that my hard work all day long was done because I have them to take care of.
When I’m faced with a potential real estate transaction that can make me tens of thousands of dollars, ONLY if I “fudge” something, or maybe let something slide, I don’t.
I am in this business for the long haul.
Creating something that my kids will have the chance to, but not the obligation to participate in when they are older, as well as some now.
When we get a house that needs clean up, and there is time, we make it a “family job”.
We all load up with cleaning supplies in tow, and go to work on the house.
My kids love “Working with Dad”, and enjoy especially those houses where people leave behind “Neat stuff”.
The last house we cleaned netted us 5 playstation games.
Do you think I’ll EVER have trouble getting them to help?
No way!
They also market for me.
My daughter and son have both often brought me FSBO information, passed out business cards and flyers, and told anyone and everyone that “WE” buy houses.

I was and sort of still am in your position, that is…wanting to have kids.
With my first two marriages, I wanted to have kids.
Thankfully I did not with my first. Divorce stinks for kids way more than it does for the divorcing parties.
With my second, I was fortunate enough to be a “Step father” to a beautiful little girl who I helped to raise and love for many years.
Sadly, since she was not mine biologically, and her real father was present, after the divorce, I was not permitted to see her again.
I all but gave up on having a family, but the taste from having one for those few years kept me secretly craving it.
I then met the beutiful family I have now, all at the same time.
I met my wife and her kids at a mutual friends get together.
I instantly fell in love with the little girl who obviosly wanted a “Daddy”, and a son who NEEDED a “Dad” to play ball with, and talk “guy stuff” with.
Their mother was not all bad either.
Since marrying them, (my kids even call the wedding “our wedding”), we have become a family.
Sure, there are frustrations at times, anyone with kids can tell you about that.
I do still hope to someday to have a child of my own biologically, but I am blessed to already have two GREAT kids of my own.

So, Ben, what the heck is this guy named Jim telling you all this for?
I’m really not sure??!?!
I’m just trying to pass along to you that for me, the entire reason I do ANYTHING is for the benefit of my family.
Without them for incentive and drive, I might as well just get a J.O.B.
Go for it, and if it is God’s will, you will have kids.
And if not, do not fret, we are not all meant to “make our own” kids.
Perhaps as others have suggested, look into adoption.
I can tell you, since I’m in the process of adopting my kids, there is NO DIFFERENCE!
When you see that not always so innocent little face looking up at you and saying, “but Daddy”, you will melt.
When your kids tell you they want something, even if it is just a moment of your time, and you have the ability to provide that, because you are in this business, you will GLOW with pride.

And if for some reason you cannot, or do not have kids, take the energy from that and use it to focus elsewhere and make a difference to the world. (Which you do EVERY time you help someone solve a real estate problem.)

This is not really something any of us can advise you on one way or the other, the choice is yours.
If the cost of the IVF is the issue, think of it this way…
If you DO NOT spend the $10k per try, will you be able to handle always wondering, "What if?"
and if you do elect to try and go ahead and spend the $10k, ask yourself this…"What can I do to make up that money?"
You are in a business Ben where making $10k with ONE or TWO deals is VERY realistic.
Nothing to wonder about there.

While I am happy with my current family status, I do still want to have my own biological baby. Will it happen? I’m not sure at all.
We have tried, and it simply has not happened.
I am fortunate enough to be young still, at least according to some, and I figure if it is meant to be, it will happen.
If not, I have my family already. I’ll just never know what my wife and I could create biologically together…not something I’ll fret over either.
I consider myself blessed just to be a “Dad”.

Good luck with your decision, and God bless you for thinking about it.

Jim FL

Re: Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by Angela

Posted by Angela on March 21, 2002 at 16:24:46:

Ben,
I have two small kids, 4 and 1 years old, and I love them very much. I can’t imagine life without them, and they make my life more enjoyable. My husband feels the same way. One of my main reasons for wanting to get into REI is so that I can spend more time on what’s most important to me - my family. I too am a fan of Rich Dad Poor Dad. For me, my family is the cake, and REI is the icing on the cake, which allows me to enjoy my cake even more!

Good luck with whatever you and your wife decide.
Angela

Re: Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by John

Posted by John on March 21, 2002 at 16:24:31:

I’m a father of 3 yr old girl and likely a second child before summer '03. I agree with what both Tim and Michael said (you’ll know once you’re there) - the health of your wife being a primary concern - both for herself and the child sake.

J.

Re: Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by Glen SoCal

Posted by Glen SoCal on March 21, 2002 at 16:22:25:

A friend of mine said that if she could do it all over again, she would not have had her son.

Now that sounds harsh. She wasn’t trying to be, she’s a good, caring person; but thought that she wasn’t really mom material.

She said, "If I never knew my son, but knew what I know now, I wouldn’t have had him.

She and her husband had divorced, so that maakes it more difficult for her, but she is a VERY SMART, VERY CAPABLE, HARD WORKING women, so her ability to provide for her son (father pays ‘some’ of his support), is good, so she is much better off than the ‘single mom’ strereotype.

But she said that her life is dominated by her sons welfare and she finds many less options for herself. She said that she doesn’t feel the natural urge to nurture. She said that it just isn’t a real strong element of her character.

Her point was, “You have to WANT children. Don’t do it because you think you should. Children arrive on this Earth without getting to fill out an application, it’s a choice parents make. Don’t do it because you think you should. It’s along road. It’s a big, big important responsibility. You shouldn’t go in half hearted. If you have any doubt, don’t do it.”

She said, "Even though I’m a 100% percent good mom, and my son gets my love and attention, it’s not, looking back, what I would choose for my life again.

I asked, “If you could turn back the clock, …make that conscious decision, would you?”

She said, “No, I wouldn’t change it.”

That may gratify some. But her reasoning was this.

She said, “Now, I know my son, and love my son. I could not make that decision… to reverse his existence. I love him, and want the best for him, and I’ll do what ever I can to give him all the opportunities to grow and be happy. But, somehow, if I could know what I know now, without having the experience of knowing my son, given the things I feel I miss, it is more important to me to have the experiences that don’t include being a parent, compared to the ones that do.”

We are old friends. She said that she can’t have this conversation openly very often. It isn’t received well.

Personally as a hedonist, I enjoy my life, my freedom. I don’t have kids. I’m free to do what ever I please, when I please, and with all the money I feel like throwing at whatever whim I have. I’ve traveled 13 countries for extended periods (sometimes more than a month)…excluding business trips. I went to Turkey last year at the drop of a hat. I eat out, I sleep in on weekends, etc…

However, I don’t share my friends feelings about children. But I’ve never had kids, so I don’t know what she knows.

To get that experience, you have to dive in completely.

Babysitting, isn’t the same I hear cause you can go home after and leave the kids behind. There aint no all or nuthin’. It’s all. You can’t ‘undive’ into the pool, put the paste back in the tube, put the baby back in there.

And once you have your kids, you love’em, can’t live without them…I’d say “yada,yada”, because that’s what parents will say without fail. They saw the look on their kids faces, …they love them, it’s over. It’s like a brain transplant, I guess.

So, there is my non-answer also. I’ve wrestled with it myself. And if my girlfriend gets pregnant, the question will be academic.

And maybe before you know it, you guys will get pregnant and get a brain transplant too! :wink:

I wish the bestof luck to you both.

ps…My brother did a 9-5 for a long time, but started rehabbing three years ago. He said it’s great. He can be flexible…there for the kids when they NEED him, take them to school, go to their functions without missing a-one-of-them. One of my investor friends brings his 3 year-old daughter with him while looking for houses. She says, “That’s a pretty house, are we going to buy that one, Daddy?”

Got to love her already, an investor in the making.

But as Tim, I think, posted. You could adopt. And that is a mouthful statement. Because if you think about it, you are not being selfish when adopting. It’s not just a ‘sew my seed’ procreation thing or the need to weigh-in as having given birth. It’s usually an un, un, unselfish, conscious decision to find a child to rear and nurture and love. The adopted child is not one that will be an extension of your gene pool, or a grandchild your parents will look to find features familiar to theirs.

Tim’s question is a very good one. Would you adopt a child if it was your only option to have one?

Now I’m confused.

Re: Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by Shawn Dostie

Posted by Shawn Dostie on March 21, 2002 at 16:18:58:

I have 2 beautiful children, a girl and a boy aged 4 and 5 respectively. Quite simply, they are the reason I work. I was chosen (adopted) by 2 wonderful parents when I was 3. I thank God every day that they found me, took me in, and raised me to be the wonderful human I am! LOL.
Good luck in your Journey through life.
Shawn

REI might make you think differently about kids - Posted by Earl

Posted by Earl on March 21, 2002 at 14:44:25:

Interesting post. These 2 subjects - Real Estate Investing (REI) and having kids, may actually be a little related, in a way. I’m a REI and my REI helps me be a stay-at-home parent. One thing about REI is that unlike your typical JOB, you may eventually be able to worry about how to cram 8 or so hours of your values, hobbies, family life, fun, around a couple hours of REI each day, instead of trying to cram 1 hour of values, family, fun, etc. around 8 hours (or much much more) of a tiring, emotionally draining JOB.

Read the ‘Rich Dad Poor Dad’ books and note how much time Rich Dad had for his family life and kids. It was his investing knowledge that allowed that. And one of my personal goals is to expose my kids to REI sort of like how Rich Dad exposed his kids to it.

I think true wealth really isn’t having all the money you want as much as it is having all the time you want. Money is a means to the end of wealth, but the real measure of wealth I think is the amount of one’s free time, not their money. It’s our society that conditions us to equate money with burning up all the hours in our life as a wage-slave.

The moral of that story is if you work diligently at the REI, eventually you can put more time at whatever you decide your values are - be it kids, volunteer or church work, crusing the South Pacific, whatever.

That’s probably a good enough non-answer. Good luck-
Earl

Re: Off the topic - kids, to have or not - Posted by Tim (Atlanta)

Posted by Tim (Atlanta) on March 21, 2002 at 14:36:54:

I have two beautiful children, a boy (8) and a girl (5). I was somewhat intimidated by the idea of children at first, but it has been a wonderful experience and I can’t imagine my life without them. You can’t imagine the joy that will fill your heart when you look into the eyes of those children. When I walk into our home at night after a hard day, I hear those little feet running to meet me and the problems of the day just disappear.

If your wife’s health is an issue, I would forego birthing your own children and looking into adoption.

Re: Off the topic - kids, to have or not (long) - Posted by Michael A. Bardelli

Posted by Michael A. Bardelli on March 21, 2002 at 14:20:10:

Ben,
Yes, I agree this is off the topic quite a bit. I have two children. Both are girls and quite young as the oldest of the two is going to be four years old next month. Having children is one of the toughest decisons a man and women can make. You must weigh the benefits agains the drawbacks. When the parents are healthy adults, the drawbacks are few. I will tell you that once a baby is born, virtually ALL of your time will be spent caring for him/her. I have stayed awake for what felt like weeks straight feeding our daughters and changing diapers. That was to give my wife a break because she does it all day while I am at work. I cannot imagine living without my daughters though. Before I fall asleep, I thank God for thier existance and their well being. This is why I have started in REI in the first place. I am currently in the Navy and as I write this I am currently making my way back to the US on my ship. I have been at sea for six months and eagerly look forward to returning home next week. I am trying to put together this REI business so that I can get out of the Navy and spend all of my time with my wife and children, period. If you can have children and you want to, go for it. However, if because of your wife’s stated health problems you don’t feel it to be safe/right, then don’t. Either way is fine and you are no less of a man for that. Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Michael A. Bardelli

Re: Bill Maher, M&M’s; Polically Incorrect? - Posted by Tim Fierro (Tacoma, WA)

Posted by Tim Fierro (Tacoma, WA) on March 22, 2002 at 08:54:56:

I have some of the same thoughts about dogs as Bill Maher has. I would rather my dogs grow up and live any way they want, as long as they are happy. My pomeranian is overweight and will probably die a couple of years earlier than another of his type of breed, but he has a wonderful life. For a runt of his litter and we had to baby feed him to make him survive, he has been with us 7-1/2 years.

BTW, I don’t feed him the entire bag. :slight_smile:

Another side trip for you… - Posted by RC

Posted by RC on March 21, 2002 at 23:27:03:

Check with your vet - I was told that many dogs can have deadly side effects from consuming chocolate.

Re: Another side trip for you… - Posted by John

Posted by John on March 22, 2002 at 01:25:00:

Yes, as far as I know (dogs (and cats, birds, turtles -(inlaws… :-)) in family since I was born - 2 at a time minimum) chocolate is a big health risk for them. Heck I used to go out and buy them each an icecream cone (vanilla but they LOVED pistacchio)- often foregoing buying myself one. As soon as we move to a sfh or an apartment with a large enough terrace I’ll be adopting one from the pound - I want my daughter to grow up loving and respecting animals as I did.

J.