Posted by David S on March 04, 2000 at 10:05:59:
Hello Mr. Garcia,
It’s always a pleasure to hear from you. As I read your posts, I can just hear that voice of yours full of excitement and enthusiasm, care and concern.
By the way, when’s the next Lenders Workshop? I need to hang around with more “doers” this year myself.
Your friend, David S
Where’s the REAL Money??? Real Estate or “Seminars/Tapes” - Posted by Matt
Posted by Matt on March 03, 2000 at 21:36:55:
I don’t mean to sound skeptical but I can’t but help notice that everyone is selling something and I don’t mean real estate. What’s the deal?
I am looking for SOLID PRACTICAL info. from people who have actually DONE ALOT OF IT, and not alot of HYPE!!! Anyone (other than “Authors” or “Seminar Salesmen”) have any suggestions?
Here’s an example of PRACTICAL ISSUE:
I know someone who bought a property with NO MONEY DOWN, WOW you say…but of course he underestimated the REAL RENTAL RATES and ENDED UP WITH NEGATIVE CASH FLOW THAT ALMOST PUT HIM UNDER…
I had lunch TODAY with a gentleman that has been renting homes for 25 years and he says he has seen it all. But he said the key was to put some cash (15-20%)into dealS so you can actually get some positive cash flow. He also said that the QUALITY OF TENANT…IS EXTREMELY CRITICAL. It doesnt take alot to ruin a good property. I believe that some CASH IS KING. and I am not trying to sell seminars and tapes on some MAGICAL have your CAKE AND EAT IT TOO…SCHEME.
I truly want to get into RE investing but I also want SOLID RELIABLE INFO that works and not alot of “FILLER” THAT SOUNDS GREAT but doesn’t work in the real world.
I’ve seen several SEMINAR AND TAPE “Table of Contents” and guess what…THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME…Maybe I should make my own WEB SITE.
My point in writing all of this is to get HONEST FEEDBACK AND hope that what I’ve been told SO FAR is not TOTALLY ACCURATE.
Matt
My advice… - Posted by Mark (SDCA)
Posted by Mark (SDCA) on March 06, 2000 at 12:22:00:
If you REALLY want to get into REI then find your niche. What part of REI really excites you? Paper? Mobiles? Apartments? SFR? LO? Rehabs?
Because if you don’t love what you do then when the going gets tough, you won’t hang in. And believe me, it WILL get tough. There are a lot more good times than bad but it isn’t all good. Once you know what you want to do, THEN it may make sense to buy a course. And they can’t all look the same. How could a mobile home paper course look the same as a course on how to buy apartment buildings for cash flow or as one on lease options? Completely difference concepts…
Hope this helps,
Mark
Re: Where’s the REAL Money??? Real Estate or “Seminars/Tapes” - Posted by Jared
Posted by Jared on March 04, 2000 at 21:12:18:
Matt, I appreciate your candor. Personally, you cant be blamed for wanting to know the scoop. Everyone has to learn. It is unfortunate that several people on this site have taken to NAME CALLING. I still can’t but wonder who you REALLY ARE?
Could it be that you intentionally Started this dialogue by using semi “inflamatory” words. Before you respond, I am not acusing you of directing your comments at any one person. However, other on this site cannot say the same. BUT I STILL CAN’T BUT WONDER WHO YOU REALLY ARE?
The money is in the application - Posted by Jacob
Posted by Jacob on March 04, 2000 at 13:32:02:
Matt,
As cynical as I am about purchasing courses, I couldn’t disagree with you more.
You see, any course you purchase from any scam artist can give value to you. I remember an excellent post (I think from Rob in FL) some time ago regarding materials from William McCorkle. The point he made so well was regarding how you apply the materials you have purchased.
In my personal experience, I have learned as much from the free materials from this and other sites as I have from a $5000 “bootcamp.” Others may differ, but that has been my experience.
What made the difference to me was how I applied it. If I go to a $5000 “boot camp” and come home and do a deal for $5000, was it worth it? It is to me. That’s common sense, at least to anyone with the ability to be successful in this business.
I’m not going to jump on the bandwagon and call you a flake. It doesn’t matter what I, or anyone might think about you. None of us here know you, and that isn’t the point.
What seperates the players from those that sit on the sidelines and quote theory is one major thing. The ability to “sack up” and just do it. Sitting around all day and wondering if all the i’s are dotted will only get you so far. Getting off your duff and putting the info in action will take you a lot farther.
Good luck,
Jacob
FINANCIAL DISCIPLINE - Posted by Nancy Cason
Posted by Nancy Cason on March 04, 2000 at 09:43:00:
I have to disagree with the suggestion that you max out your last credit card. Many real estate books are free from the library or can be borrowed. A lot of very good advice is available at CRE free.
If you want to be sucessful don’t become one of the groupies that spends money they cannot afford because they fall prey to the hype.
Read, learn, analyze then take appropriate action. If you can afford the seminar without going into debt then go. If not make some money, save some money, then spend the money on the seminar.
HAVE FUN AND KEEP A POSITIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE
NANCY CASON in beautiful North Carolina
“Financial Independence through Education” - Posted by J.P. Vaughan
Posted by J.P. Vaughan on March 04, 2000 at 09:20:03:
Matt,
The headline sums up the theme of this site.
JP Vaughan
There is wheat and chaff, separating them is the key - Posted by Nancy Cason
Posted by Nancy Cason on March 04, 2000 at 09:19:45:
You are wise to be skeptical, but do not become so negative that you close your mind to new information and a new perspective. Investing often requires us to make major shifts in how we think. I will use myself as an example later in the post.
Be wary of whom you chose to learn from. Only learn from those people who actually ?do? i.e. walk the walk, yet remember some investors have evolved well past the initial stages. You can still learn from them but you must be able to discern which stage you are in and not try to emulate someone who is far advanced from where you are. Do you begin to see that it is all based on YOUR decisions? Not on the one who is speaking. If you want individualized specific advice for you in your individual financial and skill levels then you need to pay for the one on one personal coaching. Otherwise read, listen, analyze and take what makes sense to you and apply it. THE MOST IMPORTANT IS TO APPLY – TAKE ACTION.
All of my properties are 100% leveraged. It works for me because I have other income to take care of living expenses, I have other collateral to satisfy the banks, and I buy low enough so that the return is very good. However, there is nothing to live off. Rental property is a long-term investment. Rentals do not generate enough income to support a family. You need to know the difference between investment for future income and business activity for current income.
Don?t blame the seminar teachers if you do not know the difference. READ BOOKS. Seminars only scratch the surface and rejuvenate your enthusiasm. BOOKS can and do go into detailed analysis of the concepts and when to apply them.
All my life I was very security conscience and only wanted to get my house paid for so that I could live confortably on my retirement income. Sound familiar. The change in thinking that I had to make was that debt is not bad, and to become confident that I could manage debt and cash flow and that I had financial discipline. YOU not anyone else must instill the financial discipline to manage the debt and the cash flow. If you spend the money on depreciating assets instead of appreciating assets you lose the game. It is that simple. A boat, car, vacation, etc are depreciating assets. Seminars are not assets they decrease you net worth as cash spent or debt incurred. Yet some learning is required as an investment in yourself. You must decide how much and by whom.
I personally go to one seminar a year. I would like to go to more but I still have a job and have to use my vacation time. Someday I may go more often but it will be when I have the time and the real estate is throwing off enough profit to pay for the seminars.
HAVE FUN AND KEEP A POSITIIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE
Nancy Cason
What’s wrong with people that sell courses? - Posted by HR
Posted by HR on March 04, 2000 at 03:06:26:
Matt,
Let’s analyze your question for a moment.
First, it’s a natural question. Anyone looking into this business can’t but help notice the snake oil salesmen and others who hawk rei courses. You know the types: get rich quick and easy, big houses, expensive jewelry, beautiful women, etc. Whenever I can’t sleep at night, I turn on the late night tv to see what other jerks have joined the rei quick and easy bandwagon. It’s amusing and sad.
Having acknowledged that some of the messangers are bogus, let’s analyze the message (you got some great advice from Ed Garcia, who is full of great advice, by the way). First, Matt, can you think of any other business where the message can be tainted by the messanger?
Do you find grocers who promise one thing and deliver another? Preachers? Car salesmen? Shoe salesmen? Computer salesfolk? In fact, Matt, can’t we acknowledge that the rei messengers whom we despise are in fact just using just plain old fashion sales techniques? They appeal to folk’s lazy nature and promise the world… it works, Matt, so some guys use it. Your internal bs meter smells oversimplification and hype and I suspect that has led you to question the entire business. Big mistake.
Now, having established that some rei salespeople use old and less noble sales techniques that prey on people’s emotions and appear to make the business far easier than it is; and having established that this can happen in any business; the next question to ask is this: “Can this business work and deliver the kind of returns that are advertised? Is this business for real, in other words, or is it all hype?” Let’s look at this set of questions for a moment.
First, Matt, does it make sense to you why rei – hypothetically – is such a great business? You really should go to your local or online bookseller to buy some of the great and cheap books that are available, because practically everyone talks rationally about why this biz is one of the best businesses to invest in. I’ll recommend some titles later.
Some of the reasons I love are: 1. you can do it from home (imho, it’s the perfect home based business); 2. You can start part-time and work your way to fulltime, if you desire. If you never go fulltime, though, you can make great extra money as a part-time hobby; 3. it’s CHEAP to start, too. This is a HUGE advantage. Have you ever looked into buying a franchise or starting your own biz from scratch? Seriously, have you? The costs are awesome. In this biz, anyone can scrounge together a few hundred bucks and get started; 4. Next, the funding for rei is easy and everwhere. That’s right, easy and everwhere. It may not be easy for you or others, but our entire economy and banking system is based on loaning money, especially for buying real estate. The ease of others getting money to buy re makes re a great thing to sell.
Let me give you an example. I bought a five bedroom house a few weeks ago for $2000. It’s a decent house, too, for 2 grand. It has a new roof and vinyl siding and a nice yard. It’s a cute house. It only needs about 7k to fix, and it will rent for about $600/month section 8. It’s just in a rotten neighborhood.
The Money Store owned it, and two crack heads broke in and torched up the second floor. It’s primarily cosmetic fire damage (lol, if there is such a thing). The Money Store, at this point, absolutely did not want the house. It was a major liability headache for them, and they did not want it. So they sold it dirt cheap.
I figure fixed up it’s worth about what the others in the area are going for: around 35k. I won’t sell it, though, because I’ll get all my $$$ back within 18-24 months, and then it a pure cash flow machine (by the way, have you heard anyone tell you you can’t get astounding yeilds (50%+) consistnenly on any investment vehicle? Like your local investor friend, these folks are wrong, too).
I noticed that in David’s post to you, he kept saying the word “business” to you. That’s because when you want to make the big bucks, you have to do this as a business and not a hobby. And having your own business is HARD work. Real hard.
That’s what striking me these days, Matt. How hard this is. I know I’m workin harder than I may have to as I learn to do this biz better and more efficiently, but man is it hard work, Matt. In fact, I’ve come to conclude that I make the big paydays precisely because I’m willing to take on all the headaches and bs that others choose to avoid.
For example, using my $2000 fire house, I’ve now got some homeless guy breaking in, living in it, and peeing all over the inside. I’ve boarded up the place, and he still manages to break in. As soon as we start work next week, I may have folks break in to steal the stuff.
Many folks don’t want to deal with these headaches, Matt. Honestly, many days I don’t want to deal with them. In fact, I never WANT to deal with them, I just have to 'cause it goes with the territory. Carlton Sheets doesn’t talk about that, Matt, does he? Few of them do. It’s real world, though.
So, Matt, we are back to my post that never ended: does it make sense why rei, hypothetically, can be so profitable? I’ve just touched on some of my favorite reasons.
Ok, Matt, having established that some folks promote rei with hype and exaggeration; having established that this happens in all businesses; having rationally discussed why rei can be so profitable as a business, it leads us to ask the final question: Is it really as profitable as advertised?
Matt, the answer is yes, but you need to find that out for yourself. See, what those who have started on this path know, Matt, but isn’t apparent to the uninitiated like yourself, is that you can’t compare apples to apples in this game. Others level of success have absolutely no bearing on what your level of success will be. Only your level of success will reflect your level of success. So be careful when you look to confirm YOUR suspicions or beliefs when talking to OTHERS; their experiences will not be your own.
You are doing your due diligence and evaluating whether this game is worth your time and money. A smart move. You are looking to local, real-in-the-flesh players (unlike us anonymous cyber supposed-investors) as proof that it can work. An ok move, but in your case not so smart. Why? Becuase you seem to be asking the wrong people. Your local investor may not be a great player. Sure, he may be “successful” or wealthy, but he may not be real good.
The only deals I have ever done are no money down deals, and they have all been profitable. I laugh at folks who say it can’t be done or is too risky, etc. That’s nonsense. I know I can do 'em; and I know others on this site do them all day long. The only real question that matters, Matt, is Can You Do Them? We all know the answer to that; the answer is No.
So how are you going to learn how to do them, Matt? (That gets to the crux of your post). How are you going to learn this biz? Allow me to share how I started; it’s worked well for me.
First, join your local rei group (www.nareia.com). Second, read everything here; it’s free. Third, buy the best rei books available on the market. There are some great ones out there. I highly recommend Real Estate Investing by McLean and Eldred, 2nd Edition ($15) and the Five Magic Paths to Making a Fortune in Real Estate by Lumley ($15). Those should get you started. Buy others, too, at will. After all, this is a business, and you better know it well. There will be days when you feel like a Mac truck hit you, and that’s when you know what you are doing! When (not if) you have a bad day and don’t know what you are doing, you will give up for sure. And that would be a tragedy. Cause rei is the real deal when it comes to building wealth.
Next, after you have availed yourself of all the free and cheap stuff, buy a course that interests you. Specialize in an area and become great in it. Make money in it. Start part-time, and give up dreams of fulltime, until you have mastered intermediate level rei skills. Then think about doing more.
As far as the prices of the courses goes, give me a break, Matt. $150-1000 or even $5000 is cheap. Dirt cheap. You will literally make all that back and 10x more in your first deal. So stop whining about course prices. The big mistake folks make is they buy the courses first, instead of reading the free and cheap stuff. Once you know what area of rei you want to specialize in, these courses are invaluable. The Vaughns do an excellent job of editing the stuff here, by the way; it is all good and will make you money. I don’t blame guys at all for sharing this info and charging for it. Where, after all, do you plan on learning this business if you were not born into it? You can’t go to school for it. Successful pros in your area righly won’t give away all their profitable business secrets. All these courses together are far cheaper than two semesters in college.
So, Matt, does that help? I’ve been at this about 1.5 hours how. I hope you have enjoyed the post. I had one of those aweful, Im-sick-of this, Mac truck days yesterday, and I went to bed early with a headache. I just woke at 1am my time, saw your post, and decided to respond. Why not? I can’t sleep anyway. If this doesn’t do you any good (And I agree with David: you are a little half-baked) maybe it will do someone else some good. Anyway, I normally don’t post this long, and don’t plan to again in the future; it takes too dang long.
Finally, Matt, let me leave you with a final thought. If you approach this biz like a rational person, you know what? You haven’t got a prayer. Isn’t that funny? My whole post is trying to be so rational, but you know what Matt? You know why people succeed in the business? Because it’s so deep in their bones that they can’t do otherwise. If you need to debate whether this biz is right for you as a fulltime endeavor, than it’s not. I believe in all the reasons I gave you; they are what help get a guy in the door. But once in the door, you dance the dance because you love it. It’s in your blood. All that rational $hit doesn’t matter any more; you know this can work. What keeps you going forward is the fact that you just can’t get away from rei and the excitement it brings, in addition to the suffering and the profit. The only good fulltime folks I know of are addicts. Re addicts. And I do mean addicts. Guys that LOVE real estate. If you are one of them, you have a shot. If not, still dabble in this part-time Matt. You can make a killing.
Cheers,
HR
Re: Where’s the REAL Money??? Real Estate or “Seminars/Tapes” - Posted by Chris
Posted by Chris on March 04, 2000 at 24:39:05:
Matt-
You will probably also run into Realtors and other professionals who have been doing what THEY have been doing for 25 years who will tell you “that can’t be done” or “you can’t do that in this area.” Don’t take what they say as gospel or let it get you down.
When you look at any property make sure you have done your research so that your story does not become like the ones you wrote about with the REAL RENTAL RATES and expenses only being known AFTER you have bought the property. If you do not know these numbers before you buy then you had better have plenty of cash laying around to fix the mess you have gotten yourself into.
-Good Luck, Chris
Re: Due Diligence - Posted by Stacy (AZ)
Posted by Stacy (AZ) on March 04, 2000 at 24:06:44:
Matt, I like your questions. It shows me you have a tendency to look beyond the surface. That’s a prime trait of a savvy investor.
Here’s the good news. Look as deeply as you feel necessary at CREOnline. I think you’ll find you lucked into a goldmine.
Welcome.
Stacy
Re: Where’s the REAL Money??? Real Estate or “Seminars/Tapes” - Posted by Ed Garcia
Posted by Ed Garcia on March 03, 2000 at 23:35:14:
Matt:
I like your question, and I think it’s a good one.
For starters don’t get side tracked with the messenger, and spend more time looking
at the message.
There is no doubt that a deal can be looked at differently, depending on the investor.
So when you get information that sometimes may seem contradictory, it’s because
the teacher themselves view a deal differently.
However, after saying that, you can, and should check out the messenger.
JP Vaughan only associates herself and this website with people that are for real.
She spends a great deal of time researching programs and individuals in the industry,
as to their authenticity and quality of work. If they’re not for real, or don’t measure up
to her standards, they’re not here.
Matt, this website was founded by the Vaughan’s for the purpose of educating folks
such as yourself in creative real-estate and just plain real-estate for that matter.
But if it will help you, I’ll through my name into the hat.
I have been an investor for well over 30 years. I’ve been in involved in financing since 1969.
I have become one of those people that you have mentioned, that has done seminars or workshops.
Matt, I arrived on the scene 2 years ago purely as an accident. I really wasn’t meant to be here.
I never considered myself as just an investor, but a good businessman in general. I’ve owned several
businesses for that matter. The longest one being American Heritage Financial Corp. for over 20 years.
I also have an extensive sales background. I came on the scene at the request of one of my best friends,
Mr. Terry Vaughan. Terry and I have been friends since 1972.
If I wrote a book on some of the experiences Terry and I have shared together, people would think I
was making it up. I can’t help but to have a smile on my face just thinking about the years Terry and I have
shared.
Matt, two years ago I started out right here on this very site answering questions about deal construction,
and financing. After answering questions for about six months, I come to meet an Ed Garcia I didn’t know.
I come to realize that there was a teacher inside of me. Helping people was very fulfilling and I felt it
enriched my life. Up to this point I had been considerably successful, and now I felt as though I was giving back. At Terry’s request, we did our first workshop. It was extremely successful. Then we did another one.
Again, we did well. When I say we did well, I don’t mean that I made a lot of money. What I do mean is
that the people that attended our workshop were successful. At last weeks Convention, 5 people stood up
and made testimonials on my behalf.
Matt I can’t even begin to tell you the emotion I personally experienced to have people stand up for me
and tell the world how I’ve helped them. Matt their stories aren’t little ones. If I told you the numbers that
these gentleman have done, it would blow your mind.
By the way Matt I’m not soliciting you for my next workshop, because you don’t qualify. In order to come
to my workshop, you have to already have some experience. But I want you to know that, yes I am one of the people that you were referencing in your post weather you realized it or not. And I am for REAL.
I also want you to know that the others that teach on this site, are also men of integrity.
Ed Garcia
Re: Where’s the REAL Money??? Real Estate or “Seminars/Tapes” - Posted by Russ Sims
Posted by Russ Sims on March 03, 2000 at 22:46:14:
Matt: I’ve read your post twice and I’m still not sure what your question is, but I’ll have a crack at it:
The person you know who went in the hole with his rentals didn’t do his homework or that wouldn’t have happened. Maybe he should have taken a COURSE like the one from Carleton Sheets that tells you how to do a cash flow analysis on a property before you buy it.
The guy you had lunch with HASN’T seen everything because if he had, he’d know that you don’t need to put cash into a property to realize a nice positive cash flow. None of my properties cost me anything and they all bring in handsome cash flows.
Yes, to some cash is king. So give them cash!! Just make sure it’s not YOUR cash. To others SOLVING THEIR PROBLEMS is king.For these people cash is meaningless because they have no equity in their property.One day you’ll hopefully experience what it’s like for one of these people to “give” you their property. All you do is make the payments on it.
If you’re looking for SOLID RELIABLE INFO that works, buy any of the courses on this web site. I GUARANTEE they are all produced by real doers (I’m more convinced of that than ever after the convention). If the table of contents on these courses look the same, that shouldn’t surprise you, because many gurus cover the same subjects. But their approaches can differ radically. It’s possible to take lease/option courses from Joe Kaiser, Ron Legrand, and Bill Bronchick, and find unique, specific information in each of them that will make you money.
Matt, you can get a lot of free info on this site. But for heaven’s sake, buy a course. Beg, barrow or steal the money if you have to (okay, don’t steal). Do like I did and max out the only credit card that still has some credit left on it. I guarantee you that your investment will be returned hundreds of times over…if you take ACTION. Then maybe one day soon you’ll realize that with real estate investing, it IS possible to have your cake and eat it too. Good Luck.
Hype??? - Posted by David S
Posted by David S on March 03, 2000 at 22:38:54:
I’ll cut through all the hype here Matt.
I’d be glad to help you understand anything you wish. I would personally guarantee that if you were able to ask any form of intellegent question, I’d give you all the info I possibly could. 100% PLUS!
Now, let’s get to the point here. Without any doubt in my minds eye, YOU MUST BE A FLAKE, perhaps simple idiot, to post something like this and expect any type of educated response.
Best wishes in your forthcomming bashing.
David S
Very good advice Nancy… - Posted by Ben (NJ)
Posted by Ben (NJ) on March 04, 2000 at 09:56:35:
Society at large is very wary of leverage. People like Ben Franklin have always told us “A borrower nor a lender be”, this is about as wrong as you can get. The difference between the wealthy and the super-wealthy is the INTELLIGENT use of leverage. Right now I am leveraged to the hilt and looking to further increase my credit lines. I borrow money at about 7 1/2% and put it to work earning a minimum of 18%. As long as I can keep a minimum spread like this I will do it all day long without worry.
Well Said!! - Posted by Jim Kennedy - Houston, TX
Posted by Jim Kennedy - Houston, TX on March 06, 2000 at 22:56:04:
Hal,
Great post. This is one that should be read by ALL newbies, not just the skeptical ones.
It was great seeing you again at the convention.
Best of Success!!
Jim Kennedy,
Houston, TX
Re: What’s wrong with people that sell courses? - Posted by Jim Holmes
Posted by Jim Holmes on March 06, 2000 at 24:15:32:
Hal,
Great post! If you only had a little bit more passion it would be a masterpiece.
-Jim from Idaho
Re: What’s wrong with people that sell courses? - Posted by JohnB_NJ
Posted by JohnB_NJ on March 04, 2000 at 21:49:51:
Hal,
Great Post!!
I enjoyed reading it…
And I agree, you need to be a RE addict to make it in this biz full time. My friends do not like RE and my family thinks I am nuts for quitting my job. I am glad there is a convention once per year so I can talk about my favorite subject with other RE addicts, like yourself.
I like your analogy of the Mac truck…so true…
Hal, it was a pleasure seeing you again and talking with you at the last convention. I hope to see you again in St. Louis.
Take care, my friend.
-John Bittel
Re: What’s wrong with people that sell courses? - Posted by Rob FL
Posted by Rob FL on March 04, 2000 at 17:38:28:
Hal, I crown you with thr best post of the week award. I guess you got one of those middle of the night inspirations. Take care.
Re: What’s wrong with people that sell courses? - Posted by Teri Il
Posted by Teri Il on March 04, 2000 at 13:38:17:
I want to thank you for your post. I dont know if it helped Matt but it sure helped me. I am waiting for some books I ordered to arrive and I have stumbled onto this possible deal that seems to be there for the taking. I am waiting for more information on it that I
should have Monday. I feel alot better about it now that i have read your post.
I am reading everything I can get my hands on so that I can figure out just where I want to be in this business. Once there I wlll order the courses I need to succeed, for I know that I am a winner and will not be denied. I am already addicted to the thought of making deals and living on that edge, hard work is something I am definatley not afraid of, especially when I am doing it for myself.
I want to say a quick Thank You to all the people at the convention that took time to talk to me and give me encouragement, and to everyone that posts on here.