Have you ever gone to the bank for a loan and been turned down? They thought you were too big a risk, even though you weren’t. They based their decision on the actions of other borrowers who are less honest, less hard working and less smart than you.
Have you ever had a potential seller (or buyer) shy away because they (or someone they knew) had been burned before?
Have you ever had a tenant with the attitude that because you were a landlord you were automatically a public enemy, and that it was no sin to cheat you, rob you,and wreck your property?
Have you ever had to deal with a public official who knew before he met you, that as a landlord you were a grasping skinflint with no respect for the law, and that he had better crack the whip over you and show you who was boss right off the bat? And never show you the slightest consideration or listen to anything you had to say?
I have met all those attitudes and more, AND THEY WERE ALL THE RESULT OF SOMEONE ELSE’S BEHAVIOR. They were nothing to do with me, in fact they were flat out unfair but I had to pay the price anyway. So don’t tell me I’m not affected by what others do.
I’m not going to the convention but if you are ever in Cobourg let me know. We can have a visit at the Dutch Oven and I’ll buy the coffee and cake.
JohnBoy,
Could you share how you put your signs up. What kind of stakes? How do you attach to the stake? How do you attach to a utility pole?
Thanks,
Randy
Posted by JHyre in Ohio on March 06, 2002 at 19:24:39:
GL made a valid point (where does one draw the line?), albeit in a tactless manner. There’s alot of give and take on this site, with lots of opinionated and strong-willed people. I’d much prefer a back and forth- even a hostile one- to no discussion on a legitimate topic.
The fact of the matter, is that you ARE trespassing and probably breaking an ordinance to place something that you apparantly (correct me if I’m wrong) do not intend to retrieve- something that will become litter. Seeing a RE investor sign in the gutter would probably make a passer-by think rather less of RE investors…sort of the way I view the people who constantly put up their stupid weight loss signs in my neighborhood (they get quickly removed). GL’s points are legit, whether or not you agree with them. As the guy who started the discussion, I would expect a better response from you, even with his personal comments thrown in. I know it’s a sensitive subject, given that you make a living off of the signs…does that mean one should not bring up the negative aspects, for fear of offending? This site is not and never has been a Potomkin village, showing only one side of the issues. Yes, GL got unduly personal on a sensitive subject. Fine, flame him, you won’t be the first…but do not retreat from the issue…and from legitimate questions. They DO have answer.
Tim, as I’ve stated in the past, I like your “Idea of the Week” posts. I am not attacking you, just restating a valid opinion- on a subject that you started. I hope that you choose to respond.
Posted by JHyre in Ohio on March 06, 2002 at 18:44:29:
That’s half the story. You missed what was important to Tim…your implication that HE is personally unfit or otherwise dishonorable…if you closed a post to me the way you did to Tim, in front of his peers, I’d come out of the corner swinging. In fact, been there, done that.
Driving 5-10 miles over the limit = minor infraction
Bandit signs on a street corner (I don’t know anyone that puts them on peoples lawns) = minor infraction
Agressive tax stance = minor infraction (usually)
Peeing somewhere other than a tiolet (don’t tell me you’ve never done it) = minor infraction
So on and so forth.
Murder doesn’t enter into it.
Precious people with their precious sensibilities sweating over the small stuff is something I’ll just have to get used to.
Don’t take this as a shot at you Andrew, it’s just that there are so many important issues out there that need our attention. I don’t understand why someone would take the effort to get a hold of the local code officials and b*tch and moan over street signs.
Yes, that is the logic that David is using but then you jump to an extreme example to debunk it when the issue (Laws vs right and wrong) is much more complex than that and deserves such an answer.
We are never going to agree on this Bandit sign issue-- maybe just agree to disagree.
People each have their own view of what is right and wrong. For the most part as a society, we tend to agree on a few basic things. If we didn’t, our society would fall apart. But as you try to add more and more things to that list, you get more and more diverse opinions. Unfortunately, we can’t have multiple laws about the same thing such as multiple speed limits at the same time. Which do you follow? So there is one law made-- a proverbial line drawn in the sand. The issue here is that it is automatically assumed by most people that the line drawn in the sand must therefore be great or it wouldn’t otherwise have been drawn, right? Meaning the law must be the best depiction of rightness or it wouldn’t be law.
As I said, concerning a few basic truths in our society this logic works. But make the issue narrower and narrower and you begin to see that laws are in fact made by people. And those people work within the confines of our slow but fluid law-making processes and are under pressure from many different sides as to where that line should be.
My very long-winded point is this: Just because something is law doesn’t necessarily make it wrong or right. All it does is lend credence to the argument that a lawmaker had the opinion that it was wrong or right. Each individual may have their own opinion and, barring those few societal commonalities, their opinions aren’t any better or worse than yours.
So regarding the bandit sign issue, yes, it is usually illegal. But is it so wrong? Maybe in your opinion. I personally would rather have lots of little bandit signs and no billboards. One is much larger, intrusive, and harder to ignore yet it is considered right-- most likely because we are used to it and it is sanctioned by law.
I’ve been using 4ft garden stakes that I buy from Mernards. I just nail the signs to the stake or nail them to telephone poles.
I noticed other signs are attached to poles by screws. My guess is they are using a cordless drill to put them up which may be easier, I haven’t tried that yet since nailing them has been simple enough for me.
Posted by Tim Jensen on March 06, 2002 at 20:08:52:
John,
I guess I was tresspassing. I never looked at it that way. Then again, when I see a boarded up building and walk around it or try to look in the building thats tresspassing too. Putting up the signs was actually a zoning violation. Since the call I don’t put them up on buildings or poles in the city.
Where do I draw the line. I guess I will have to say this. If you have to be dishonest or cheat someone to make a deaL.
Sorry to beat up on weak rationalizations again, I just couldn’t resist!
I’m thankful that John Hyre has reiterated a number of the points I made a few weeks ago (e.g. property rights, litter, ugly!). He’s well respected here so maybe his comments will be read and understood by a wider audience.
You’re right Hank, I don’t get caught up in calling code officials and such. That’s too much like work for me. I don’t like them for numerous reasons, but don’t take matters into my own hands…I don’t pull over speeders either, so at least I’m consistent.
However, I am somewhat thankful for the folks that do get worked up over signs, litter, and other “minor” issues. If they didn’t, you and I would probably live in a pretty nasty looking country.
I was just going to attach a couple of bandit signs to the end of a javelin (sp?). It’ll be just like a 6 foot long bandit dart.
Then I’ll drive down the street in a pickup truck and hire a couple of local high school track stars to chuck my signs all over the place. No hammering, no stopping! That’s what I call efficiency baby!!!
Might even be able to take out a few of the anti-sign zealots if the kids have good aim. Of course, I’d give the kids a bonus for that.
Know any place I can get javelins on sale?
Thanks for the laugh!
-Andrew
P.S. Before anybody tries this…I was just kidding! (Insert your favorite legal disclaimer HERE)
Re: My diatribe about laws re: bandit signs (long) - Posted by JHyre in Ohio
Posted by JHyre in Ohio on March 06, 2002 at 17:08:02:
You are scarred from your law school time, LOL. For me, it’s less the legal issue as the pure rudeness of it. The things are plain UGLY. I don’t necessarily think that David & Tim, etal are evil for doing it…but YUCK!
Johnboy, I did not know that you used Bandit signs as well? If you use them, I know that I will be using them a lot more. What message do you use on your signs? How many signs do you usually put out? How has your response been from the bandit signs, in terms of getting deals from them?
Posted by JHyre in Ohio on March 06, 2002 at 20:34:02:
Sort of answers my question. Let me take a stab:
“Yeah, it’s trespassing. So is walking on my neighbors lawn. No harm, no foul.” Tim, the part that bothers me is putting the sign on the property, without permission or against the ordinance. The latter normally wouldn’t bother me much. We are way over-regulated as a society and often ignore stupid laws. But I don’t think that the ordinance is necessarily stupid…it reduces litter and keeps places like my neighborhood looking good. So, while I can defend the trespass, the follow up to the trespass is still objectionable to me…that’s the case with most trespasses that aren’t repeated- it’s not the trespass, it’s what’s done in the course of the trespass that’s truly objectionable. I have a hard time defending that.
I also think that generating public rubbish reflects poorly on RE investors as a class. That bothers me. It gives a class of which I am a part a bad image.
Does that mean that you also cheat people? Probably not. Is someone with a consistent, flagrant or more serious disregard for others rights likely to cheat others? Yes. The guy who generates public garbage, uses McDonalds dumpster for his rehab materials, doesn’t keep his properties up…you see where it’s going. I do not think you are one of those people, certainly not based on the fact that you use bandit signs, ugly as I may think they are. So the correct answer is: GL, you are making a generalization based on too little data. Putting bandit signs up, alone, is not an indication of a rip-off artist, or anything close to that. Alot of rip-off artists may put up bandit signs (not proven), but only some minescule portion of people who put up the signs ARE rip-off artists. You’d need more information to make such a sweeping generality.
Where do I draw the line? I have no objection to skirting the DoS. I have little objection to a well-calculated avoidance of poorly drafted, monopolistic mobile home dealer laws. I’ll send postcard adds to people whom I expect will properly dispose of the cards…this is legal and I have not created an eyesore. I do not post bandit signs for all of the reasons discussed above. I certainly don’t cheat people, though some idiot reporter may disagree because I do not pay what he deems “fair market value”. There’s alot between bandit signs and fraud…a long continuum of action, that as a whole, allows us to pretty accurately gauge someone’s character. We don’t have enough info to tell re most people on this site…except for the few who say things that are so wrong, they are obviously cheats. But bandit signs making someone a cheat? I don’t think so.
Posted by JHyre in Ohio on March 06, 2002 at 19:58:33:
I want the movie rights to all of this. And I also stuck up for Kanook-dom, down below (probably deleted already). We Yanks appreciate you guys, curmudgeonly RE investors and all.
You bring up another interesting point. That you can do something to seriously tick someone off, and to you it’s no big deal.
I tick people off with my replies, thinking it’s all in good fun.
Dave and Tim tick people off with their marketing and can’t see why such a trivial thing makes them unpopular.
I could have a barking hound dog in the back yard that doesn’t bother me a bit while it drives all the neighbors nuts.
Maybe that’s all this is. Tim has got some people steamed over his marketing and he can’t see it. Well it is possible for people to get upset over trivial things, and it’s not so trivial to them. For example, bandit signs can’t be that trivial an annoyance if they went to the trouble to pass a law against them. The law must have generated quite a bit of public approval to get passed in the first place. So they must annoy a lot of people even if we can’t see it.
