Re: Wow a time warp - you better tell the attorney that filed it - Posted by Ron
Posted by Ron on March 16, 2000 at 12:03:40:
He filed a second bankruptcy in May of 1996. Reed’s site posted it (and you can criticize him for his opinions, but when he puts facts and dates down, he has verified it).
Re: Not even the same category - Posted by Ron
Posted by Ron on March 16, 2000 at 14:08:03:
IRS liens in 1986, bankruptcy in 1996, and in 2000 he has totally abandoned real estate for multi-level marketing.
How can he be judged as a successful real estate investor with this track record?
Re: Baking Cakes and RE… - Posted by David Alexander
Posted by David Alexander on March 17, 2000 at 11:46:22:
Ok, Tina
if you dont the analogy now you never will. The recipe is fine it’s after he bakes the cake,… get a clue.
Enough, I dont like banging my head against a wall. I’m willing to bang it against the wall a little while even it hurts if I think it’ll help someone see in a new way to help them further themselves. Dont see that happening here.
David Alexander
You’re right Tina! (or however you are) - Posted by Terry Vaughan
Posted by Terry Vaughan on March 18, 2000 at 12:58:36:
Yes, Tina. You have convinced me!
I reccommend that YOU should NEVER listen to anything Joe Land has to say!
For the rest of you:
Don’t pass up a chance to hear this man speak! Brilliant! But be careful, he might “warp” your mind (I hope)!
Oh man, here’s another one! - Posted by Jacob
Posted by Jacob on March 17, 2000 at 10:16:36:
Tina,
Before you get to involved in this discussion and be forced to insert your foot in your mouth like Ron, I would like to offer a little advice.
JACK REED IS NOT “THE MAN.”
There, I said it. It’s pretty dangerous to go around quoting people llike Reed verbatim, without bothereing to find out the kind of person HE is. When you do that, you start to sound like the people in Jonestown and Waco. Jack Reed is serving you his poisoned Kool-Aid, and you are drinking it without questioning the man.
You would have been much better off reading the discussions here before chiming in. You also would have been much better off not trying to argue with Terry.
End the negativity,
Jacob
Re: Wow a time warp - you better tell the attorney that filed it - Posted by John Behle
Posted by John Behle on March 16, 2000 at 12:58:42:
That may be. Bob’s been in California for many years.
I guess your standard of mistakes are that someone’s losing their shirt and giving their properties back to the bank is a good and acceptable mistake and Bob’s bankruptcy(s?) is un-acceptable.
More power to you if these are your legitimate posts and thoughts. It’s more likely you are Steve Meiner or one of the ones that like to just stir up trouble here.
When I find a perfect person, I’ll sit at his feet and learn all I can. In the meantime, I will learn all I can from those on this planet and especially pay attention to the mistakes of others.
Absolutely - Posted by John Behle
Posted by John Behle on March 16, 2000 at 15:12:30:
As I said, the liens and bankruptcy had little to do with real estate. He’s been there, he’s done it, he knows what he talks about and teaches.
I ought to qualify one thing though. I never finished “Nothing Down” and haven’t read “Nothing Down for the 90’s” yet, though it is on my shelf and “to read” list. I did attend his two day seminar many times and learned some extremely valuable and creative techniques. I attended just about any seminar I ever saw and read any book I could get my hands on.
I never paused to think “Did the man run over a cat in a previous life?” You’ve got me thinking though. I found out a mentor of mine got a ticket for parking in a handicapped zone, so maybe I should throw at all he taught me too.
Enough said, last post. Learn from it, get over it or move on, but I’ve got a closing - that may not have happened without knowing and learning from Bob or at least might not be as profitable anyway.
Re: Baking Cakes and RE… - Posted by Tina
Posted by Tina on March 17, 2000 at 12:09:14:
So the receipe can work for everyone else, but Allen is the only one who can’t succeed by it?
Should a baseball manager teach the basics of baseball if he never played the game somewhat successfully?
Re: You’re right Tina! (or however you are) - Posted by Robert
Posted by Robert on March 18, 2000 at 17:15:00:
Over at John Reed’s website, he says Joe Land is no longer doing real estate and puts out a subliminal message tape that basically has nothing on it.
Why would he leave real estate if he was so successful at it?
Re: Absolutely - Posted by Ron
Posted by Ron on March 16, 2000 at 15:51:00:
Let me think this through for you:
1970’s - Allen develops books/courses on ‘Nothing Down’
1980’s - Allen teaches seminars/implements techniques
Mid 1980’s - Allen has hundreds of thousands in liens,
judgements, and deficiencies
1990’s - Allen regroups
1996 - declares bankruptcy
2000 - abandons real estate altogether for multi-level
marketing
This is not a handicapped parking ticket; this is bankruptcy, hundreds of thousands in liens, judgements, and lawsuits; then he abandons his 20+ year of teaching altogether.
Trump went down during the real estate collapse; Allen went down before the collapse and after the collapse.
And he should be trumpeted as a successful mentor?
Robert, uh, Tina, uh Ron - Split personallity? - Posted by Terry Vaughan
Posted by Terry Vaughan on March 18, 2000 at 21:49:08:
Would it surprise you to know I also have produced movies, play blackjack and trade commodities - all at a professional level?
Oops, I forgot Reed is also a football coach. Darn! I can’t make up my mind wether to buy his news letter or call him for the latest spread! After all I can’t trust what he says if he can’t stick with one profession!
Shall we get you glasses? - Posted by John Behle
Posted by John Behle on March 16, 2000 at 16:41:50:
Tax liens related to his seminar business has no relation to his real estate knowledge or what he has published.
He had little do with the business at that time or it’s collapse. If you want to fault his business management skills or his estate planning skills in the way of liability managment, ok. Fine.
Bob didn’t cause a snow slide to destroy his house and I seriously doubt he would have had many financial problems without that loss. Why the insurance had lapsed or wasn’t in place, I don’t know. You can fault that. You can fault him for building in that location and Robert Redford or whoever for allowing him to. But what has that got to do with his book or knowledge of real estate.
You must be a politician. You use the process of “linkage”. Throw in a bunch of negative, un-related facts to color an issue. Tie them together to sway emotions. You could probably be a trial lawyer too and sway a jury.
I just happen to have an open mind yet re-focus back on the issues. I wouldn’t argue that he hasn’t made mistakes. In an open minded discussion, they would be an excellent learning tool, but that isn’t what is going on here. You want to trash him over the mistakes and throw out anything of value.
The issue is or at least was - until you tried to cloud it - Bob’s books, materials, knowledge, etc. Not whether he has made mistakes. No one has tried to dispute that. Bob would tell you that himself. In fact someone told me about a tape or presentation he gave honestly going into those details.
I wouldn’t argue that he should be your mentor or you shouldn’t question what you read. I am of the firm belief that you should learn all you can from anyone possible. I’m no more willing to throw what Bob has to teach out than what John Reed has to teach because of his mistakes. I’d love to buy him lunch and learn from his experiences in Texas, yet I’d learned my lessons in market timing before that and for that reason avoided the rush to the Texas market.
I believe my open mind has brought great value. As I mentioned, I paid a couple bucks for McCorkle’s materials to see if there was anything interesting. The Milins totally turn my stomach, yet I picked up some of their materials cheaply to look at. Don Lapre may be the utter king of hype, yet I picked up his course and found some very interesting things about marketing.
Gary Halbert went to prison for some of the mistakes he has made in the “business” of marketing, yet is one of the utter geniuses of marketing. Even a “competitor” David Ogilvy recognizes that and used some of his material in one of his books.
Chuck Considine is one of the brightest CPA’s and real estate minds the country has ever seen, but my understanding is he spent some time in prison for tax related matters. At the convention, Ernest Tew updated me on Chuck’s endeavors and apparently he is extraordinarily wealthy now. His sons were all self made millionaires by the age of 21.
I don’t think you really care about any of this, but I care about those who read your negativity. They deserve better than to be served up the dish of dogfood you want to provide.
I hate to see people turned away from knowledge or potential because of negativity. At the same time I hate to see them blindly following some guru or mentor.
Both approaches are blind. There are two ways to avoid using your brain much in life. One is to believe everything and the other is to believe nothing.
My encouragement is always to learn all you can from everyone. As the saying goes “be a student of many, but a follower of none”. I take that to mean there is value in learning, but danger in getting too hooked or dependent on one person. I dislike the term “Guru” because dependence and even “worship” is what it implies to many. “Mentor” has been used by some to mask the same baloney. Same product, different box.
Bye. Need to get a quit claim deed signed.
Re: Robert, uh, Tina, uh Ron - Split personallity? - Posted by Robert
Posted by Robert on March 18, 2000 at 22:09:10:
A quick point; you criticize Reed for evaluating gurus but your other website is devoted completely to evaluating gurus. You allow opinions to be posted without facts backing them up; why the double standard on Reed? Just because he criticizes a few of your friends?
Triggers FUD too… - Posted by Matthew Chan
Posted by Matthew Chan on March 16, 2000 at 21:38:09:
Unfortunately, it isn’t just the negativity. It is the FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) button that often gets pushed when guys like Ron keep harping the same message over and over.
I guess that is why John T. Reed has such a strong following himself. He taps into the FUD the unambitious and closed-minded people have.
The upside of this whole online fiasco is that it has brought out some super responses.
Re: Shall we get you glasses? - Posted by Ron
Posted by Ron on March 16, 2000 at 16:53:22:
For 20 years, Allen wrote books, did seminars, and was one of the top dogs for ‘Nothing Down’.
What has he accomplished since the 1970’s? Besides selling a lot of courses, books, and seminars; his real estate activity has resulted in bankruptcy, judgements, lawsuits, and IRS liens. What does he choose to do? Go with multi-level marketing? Honestly; do you think someone is creditible who has constantly failed at his teachings and abandons it altogether? What is the difference between this and a auto tech who supervises technicians but had a greater than 50% failure rate at fixing cars? You would avoid this individual to work on your car, wouldn’t you?
Re: Triggers FUD too… - Posted by Ron
Posted by Ron on March 16, 2000 at 21:58:51:
I suppose you strongly criticize the television investigations of McCorkle and Vu too, as FUD, or do you have a different twist for them?
Once again - faulty logic - Posted by John Behle
Posted by John Behle on March 16, 2000 at 17:50:12:
Again you ignore the facts. That’s fine, few know them, but you mis-contrue them.
Bottom line - Bob made money in real estate and lost money in seminars, restaurants, snow slides, films and whatever else.
The books reference real estate - not making money in the seminar business or business management. You won’t see them at Wharton or Harvard as managment texts, but you do see them on the shelves of thousands of successful real estate investors.
What does Bob do now? I don’t know and don’t care. I’ll check out his site some day out of curiosity, but it is just not important to whether his books have value. He may be doing deals right as we speak.
Neither will I thow out John Reed’s books or knowledge because he acknowledges not buying property since the 80’s. He may be coaching football somewhere as we speak. So what. Do the books have value? I’ll tell you some time when I get around to them.
Your mechanic analogy is great, but again flawed. A mechanics skills and performance is relevent. His driving skill or ability to repair a furnace may not be.
Allen’s mistakes in business do not invalidate his real estate success, knowledge or techniques.
Your logic is faulty. Period.